The greatest band. Ever.

Yeah but it's not uncommon for a band's first few albums to be very good, then they get rich, lose their edge, and the rest of their stuff sucks.
For sure. It makes sense when you think of it. First album or 2 (or more) is the best of everything that person or band has written up to that point in their life. It could start to thin out after a couple of albums. If you got some kind of big time record deal tomorrow, think of how awesome your first album would be, considering you can choose the best 8-12 songs that you've ever written.
 
Lt Bob,
I meant that they were a good pop band - not some band that I'd tattoo myself with. They had fun lyrics and they had a fun clips and they were fun.
Down under, bands like AC/DC, Slade and TRex have developed gravitas beyond their musical scope that's all.
I really like Bon era AC/DC, (I have the Bon era LPs) and as Chuck points out Mal & Angus' big brothers band was another fun pop band. The Easybeats were a superb pop rock band. I have all their albums.
I'm just constantly astounded when what I grew up with as pop is elevated in status. I suppose seeing the videos in the early 70's on Countdown, Sounds Unlimited and so on devalued them a little - easy access often equals throw away attitude.
I am a musical snob, I know, but in this instance I was just commenting on the different status some bands seem to grow into.
 
Ill tell you who the best 3 bands in the world were/are......and i'm a Brit by the way.......Byrds....Little Feat...Flamin' Groovies.......the latter 2 still tour albeit without all original members.
 
Yeah but it's not uncommon for a band's first few albums to be very good, then they get rich, lose their edge, and the rest of their stuff sucks.
As ever, it depends on the band. But I don't think riches are the main or only reason for the loss of edge. I think it's just life. Many artists find that the energy and drive that goes into 'making it' over those initial years is unsustainable over a very lengthy stretch of years with all the myriad things that make up real life. Even many of the jazz and blues 'masters' who had careers that spanned 3, 4 and 5 decades didn't keep it going the whole time. Many ebbed and flowed. And many of the rockers who appeared on the scene implicitly or directly dissing 'their elders' as being passé dinosaurs had to grow up and discover that it takes something exceptional to knock out album after album of vital music, time and time again regularly for years on end.
That said, those artists that were able to knock out 2 albums a year each year {and despite the mythology, there weren't actually that many of them} were pretty amazing. In a way, it makes more sense to do it the modern way, one album every three to four years !
 
For sure. It makes sense when you think of it. First album or 2 (or more) is the best of everything that person or band has written up to that point in their life. It could start to thin out after a couple of albums. If you got some kind of big time record deal tomorrow, think of how awesome your first album would be, considering you can choose the best 8-12 songs that you've ever written.



Entropy takes it's toll on everything.
 
I don't think riches are the main or only reason for the loss of edge.

No, it is. Most musicians are mentally weak with seriously flawed personalities. When they're poor, hungry, and focused with nothing to lose, they are at their creative peak. Then comes money. And with money comes women, fame, drugs, alcohol, excess, and the focus is gone. Some bands do maintain their artistic edge for a long period of time. They are the rare exception.
 
No, it is. Most musicians are mentally weak with seriously flawed personalities. When they're poor, hungry, and focused with nothing to lose, they are at their creative peak. Then comes money. And with money comes women, fame, drugs, alcohol, excess, and the focus is gone. Some bands do maintain their artistic edge for a long period of time. They are the rare exception.

I think this idea plays out on almost any biography of artists who has been successful. Not all, but a large portion of them crash and burn.

I think part of the problem is, what happens when you fulfill your dreams, then what do you do?
 
Yeah, this is all not true at least as often as it is. Plenty bands take a few albums to hit their stride and find a voice. Could be a combination of getting to understand the possibilities of the studio and the members getting to know each other, songwriting skills getting honed etc. Also, bands get their foot in the door with an accessible album and then start pushing their luck with more adventurous stuff which is, to me, more fun to listen to. For some reason third and fourth albums are often high-water marks.
 
And with money comes women, fame, drugs, alcohol, excess, and the focus is gone.
Women, drugs, alcohol and excess ceased to go hand in hand with money and fame exclusively before the 60s were out. If you read enough interviews and biographies, you may note that there's a whole slew of artists that were druggy boozers long before the money and fame hit. The fame exacerbates an already, um, inclement situation. Many turned to drugs, sex, booze and excess precisely because fame didn't come their way.

On a slightly different tack, one of the lessons that rock and pop artists had to learn was how to mature and still have something to say beyond the concerns of young people, allied to music that people actually wanted to hear. In the early to mid 60s, many if not most artists genuinely seemed to believe that what they were doing wouldn't last, let alone become a lifetime career. By 1970, it was apparent that this was not the case and a whole different mindset had to be acquired.
How much this has helped or hindered the plethora of musicians since then is always going to be open to debate because our ideas of what constitutes having edge or not having edge is personal to each individual with so many combinations of factors involved, not least whether we actually like the stuff we're judging.
 
Yeah, this is all not true at least as often as it is. Plenty bands take a few albums to hit their stride and find a voice. Could be a combination of getting to understand the possibilities of the studio and the members getting to know each other, songwriting skills getting honed etc. Also, bands get their foot in the door with an accessible album and then start pushing their luck with more adventurous stuff which is, to me, more fun to listen to. For some reason third and fourth albums are often high-water marks.

Radiohead is a perfect example.

Pablo Honey = fairly forgettable
The Bends = pretty darn good
OK Computer and Kid A = Indisputable genius
 
Radiohead is a perfect example.

Pablo Honey = fairly forgettable
The Bends = pretty darn good
OK Computer and Kid A = Indisputable genius

Agreed. Some would argue that they peaked on the Kid A, and the high points of Amnesiac were still phenomenal. But starting with Hail to the Thief, I found them struggling to progress in their adventurousness while still making interesting music. In Rainbows had its moments, but The King of Limbs is just boring to me. It's like they transcended progress and went through the looking glass.

One struggle as an artist is do you just keep making the same album over and over because its your wheelhouse, or do you try to progress and push your own boundaries at the risk of losing your footing and ending up out in left field with nobody willing to follow you there?

I'm usually willing to follow an artist through that growth, but a lot of times they end up shedding everything that made me enjoy their music in the first place. Occasionally that works...I end up in a place that I never expected and enjoy it. But most of the time it seems that they lose something that was critical to their likability.

Or what about when an artist makes a sudden and deliberate left turn? Like Le Noise by Neil Young, or Age of Adz by Sufjan Stevens? Talk about alienating your fans. But I bet that they picked up new fans through those shifts too.
 
Agreed. Some would argue that they peaked on the Kid A, and the high points of Amnesiac were still phenomenal. But starting with Hail to the Thief, I found them struggling to progress in their adventurousness while still making interesting music. In Rainbows had its moments, but The King of Limbs is just boring to me. It's like they transcended progress and went through the looking glass.

One struggle as an artist is do you just keep making the same album over and over because its your wheelhouse, or do you try to progress and push your own boundaries at the risk of losing your footing and ending up out in left field with nobody willing to follow you there?

I'm usually willing to follow an artist through that growth, but a lot of times they end up shedding everything that made me enjoy their music in the first place. Occasionally that works...I end up in a place that I never expected and enjoy it. But most of the time it seems that they lose something that was critical to their likability.

Or what about when an artist makes a sudden and deliberate left turn? Like Le Noise by Neil Young, or Age of Adz by Sufjan Stevens? Talk about alienating your fans. But I bet that they picked up new fans through those shifts too.

Yeah it's tough to say. I feel pretty much the same as you with Radiohead. By Hail, some of their shit started to stink again, and I can't get into King of Limbs at all.

The same happened for me with Wilco. Summerteeth and YHF were the peak for me, I dug a decent amount of Ghost Is Born, but by Sky Blue Sky, they'd pretty must lost me. I gave them another chance with Wilco (the Album) and bought it site unseen, but the magic is gone for me. I still haven't bought The Whole Love.
 
Yeah it's tough to say. I feel pretty much the same as you with Radiohead. By Hail, some of their shit started to stink again, and I can't get into King of Limbs at all.

The same happened for me with Wilco. Summerteeth and YHF were the peak for me, I dug a decent amount of Ghost Is Born, but by Sky Blue Sky, they'd pretty must lost me. I gave them another chance with Wilco (the Album) and bought it site unseen, but the magic is gone for me. I still haven't bought The Whole Love.

I'm kind of in the same boat with Wilco. Summerteeth and YHF were essential alblums to me as well. I hung with Sky Blue Sky solely for Nels Kline's guitar playing even though it was kind of a cash-in of a Volkswagen commercial/album. Wilco (the album) was totally forgettable, but i was actually somewhat happy with The Whole Love. The Art of Almost is worth the price of admission by itself. I just don't enjoy the dry sound they've been mining for the last several albums. Especially on Tweedy's vocals.
 
"On a slightly different tack, one of the lessons that rock and pop artists had to learn was how to mature"

I agree with you on this Grim. After all as a band matures it just sounds weird if they are singing about 16 year old girls. Even now when I hear a song on the radio and the content is about teenage lust, all I can think is "what a bunch of perverts", even if it's a song I listened to when I was a teen. It just doesn't sound right.

Although not my favorite band, I think the Stones have a good argument for being the greatest band ever. Yes, there have been some personnel changes, but basically the core of Keith, Mick, and Charlie are still there and can still sell out a show. The hits might not be coming like they used to, but hey when you have as many songs as they do you don't need to come up with much else.

My favorite band of all time, and who I believe could have been the greatest, was Mott the Hoople. There are tons of bands out there from many different genres who reference them as a major influence. And Ian Hunter...one of the best singer-songwriters in the business.
 
After all as a band matures it just sounds weird if they are singing about 16 year old girls. Even now when I hear a song on the radio and the content is about teenage lust, all I can think is "what a bunch of perverts", even if it's a song I listened to when I was a teen. It just doesn't sound right.
Though never a fan of Lou Reed, I rate him for being the first rocker I ever heard to actively trash the idea of rock being exclusively for young people.
It's eye opening, however, to remember where certain artists were at when they were young. In fact, I often marvel at the wisdom and depth of vision that people showed when they were young. Some of the lyrics that Lennon, Dylan, Syd Barrett, Smokey Robinson, Chuck Berry, Mick Jagger, George Harrison, Pete Townsend, John Entwistle, Roger Glover, Ian Gillan, Robert Plant, Bob Marley, Gil Scott Heron, Larry Norman, David Bowie, Suzanne Vega, Melanie Safka, Paul McCartney, Sting and tons of others came up with before the age of 25 and 30 are tremendous.
Although not my favorite band, I think the Stones have a good argument for being the greatest band ever. Yes, there have been some personnel changes, but basically the core of Keith, Mick, and Charlie are still there and can still sell out a show. The hits might not be coming like they used to, but hey when you have as many songs as they do you don't need to come up with much else.
The earliest memory that I have in life is of the Stones doing "Get off of my cloud". I was 2 going on 3 at the time. I don't remember it now but there have certainly been times when I have.
Obviously there's no such thing as the greatest band ever, not even the Beatles, because zillions have been part of the important patchwork of artists that have made up the picture. But the Stones certainly made more than a minor contribution. Thing is though, all the things they became famous for, they were beaten to the punch by others.....the Animals beat them to the punch, getting blues into the charts to no.1, the Beatles beat them in terms of popularising the notion of writing one's own songs and fan mania, the Who ran neck and neck in terms of lyrical depth but so did the Kinks who also beat them out sexually and in terms of being bad boys, fighting on stage and getting banned not only from venues but countries {!!}, while the Who, Donovan and the Small Faces were in drug troubles before the Stones got busted etc, etc....
But I dearly love the Stones' 1965~'69 output, definitely the equal of the Beatles in quality if not quantity {few bands have been fortunate to boast 3 quality writers}.



I believe could have been the greatest, was Mott the Hoople. There are tons of bands out there from many different genres who reference them as a major influence. And Ian Hunter...one of the best singer-songwriters in the business.
Ah, Mott the hoople. I love "All the young dudes", great song. I have their biography and it's wonderfully in depth. In fact, it's one of the best books I've ever read. And as names go, there really aren't many better than Mott the hoople, what a fantasssssstic name. Both Ian Hunter and Mick Ralphs were top notch writers and Hunter is still so wise and articulate.
But I've just never been able to get into them as a band. I love everything about them except their music. Like Traffic, I should dig their stuff mightilly, but I just can't.
I saw a rockumentary on them earlier this year and I was so disappointed. Everyone was interviewed and appeared in it except Overend Pete Watts. His absence spoiled it for me. It's like doing a programme on Crosby, Stills and Nash but leaving out Graham Nash ! I'm sure there were reasons but that just did it for me. What made it all the funnier was that the first time I taped it, the sound never came through so I had to wait a few weeks till it was shown again !
 
Mott the Hoople - the Young Dudes album was superb but wasn't enough of their own material. Their other Hunter/Ralphs albums are better albums. I have about 4LPs I think - they really weren't much as Mott post Ralphs & Hunter.
They also padded their live sets with too many covers - with the music on record why not do it live?
Wasn't Hunters "solo" album superb though? To me it was a Ronson Hunter album (contractual obs) but such a stand out & a direct line from ATYDudes in terms of variety and class.
The Diary of a Rock n Roll Star was great - thought all the sex n drugs was avoided.
Reed - when he stopped singing (& it was barely that even at the best of times) completely lost me & he only became more pompous and self absorbed without being interesting after that. Mind you I really loved his stuff until after the Bells - and that demonstrates how foolish I can be.
The Stones - great singles band with some great albums up to & including Some Girls. Trading on their rep ever since.
Wisdomat an early age - Paul Weller - Down In The Tube Station at Midnight. Scarily aware of the world he was living in. Not much time for him post Butties buddies however.
Pervvy rock?
Old men singing Good Morning Little School Girl is about the sharpest point in that bag of sticks. Teens and 20's in the 60s & 70s - well, it was bad but the world seemed not to care as much sadly.
I listened to the Sweet Live at the rainbow & that - given the audience - seemed quite a way off the moral compass.
 
Did you know Bowie wrote that?
Yeah. He pretty much rescued Mott with that song because they were in the throes of a break up at the time because they didn't seem to be breaking through to the British public. They may even have broken up actually.
Bowie felt that democratic bands just couldn't work and he "encouraged" Ian Hunter to move into a position of leadership, with the eventual result that Mick Ralphs got ultra pissed off, left the band, got together with Paul Rodgers in Bad company {an ironically named band if there ever was one ~ they were such nice chaps !} and made a fortune and got to the top of the tree, something Mott never managed, so he kind of had the last laugh. But in terms of influence and kudos, Bad company have never been able to hold a candle to Mott the hoople. I tried to get into them too, couldn't do it. They're one of the only bands whose record {"Straight shooter"} I actually returned in my heavy rocking youth. I swapped it for AC/DC's "Let there be rock" which I still have. The only Bad company song I like is "Early in the morning".

Speaking of Bowie "Dudes", I have two of his versions of it, one was an outtake and the other is a snatch of it from the last Ziggy Stardust gig at Hammersmith Odeon. Mott's definitive version blows both Bowie's out of the water but it's one of those songs that is so melodically strong with a hooky chorus to die for that a group of Polynesian pentecostal church sisters aged 58 could cover it and it would be worth singing along to !
 
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