The Bleeding 424

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Vurt

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I've been using the 424mkIII for months now and cannot for the life of me figure out how to stop the bleeding on this SOB. We've been rehearsing for months, during which time I thought the answer to this problem would surface, but it hasn't. So basically, we're at a standstill until it is rectified. To make matters worse, this obstacle is just the first problem. I'll just detail it a bit and throw out the Q's as they come...

We're trying to put a guitar track down simultaneously with 3 drum signals, which will also go to one track. This brings to light issues #1 and #2.

#1:
Can’t record to any track w/o bleeding occurring on another track. This has been a problem for months, and I’ve tried every possible combination of what the manual suggest, which is…
RECORD DIRECT TO TRACK 3 WHILE RECORDING MULTIPLE INSTUMENTS ON TRACK 1 VIA BUSS LEFT AT SAME TIME. CHANNEL 3’s PAN TURNED HARD RIGHT.
Well, that doesn’t work, and nothing else I’ve tried does either.

#2
Basically, same problem as above, but with the drum channels (1,2,4). If I can’t get one guitar signal to record soley to one track, how the hell can I get 3 drum signals to record onto one track???



And lastly, I’ve got a Yamaha REV500 and a dual ART mp pre hooked up in an effects loop. My concern here is that I’ll have similar problems applying effects to desired channels.

I know this is a subject often brought up on these boards, but I’ve searched past threads and nothing has helped. If someone can please show me what I’m doing wrong, I’ll be forever grateful. I’m completely out of ideas…

Adam
 
How bad is the bleeding?

Is this "bleeding" at a much lower level than the track, or ar the two signals at the same level?

bleeding is basically crosstalk between tracks, the heads are picking up signal from the other tracks, But it sounds like somthing else is going on here. The MKIII is a little tricky bastard, I did some live recording with one and it's way more complicated that my original 424.

-jhe
 
Thanks for replying...

I think you're probably right in that there may be something other than 'bleeding' going on because the unwanted signal is quite strong. *If* it's not of equal strength as the intended one, it's no more than 5% less.

Adam
 
Try recording with the Pan knobs in the left and right position as per the manual (channels 1 and 3 hard left; channels 2 and 4 hard right). Now, on the Record Function switches, put EVERYTHING, I mean EVERY channel on 'DIRECT' when you record. This got rid of the bleed for me. Hope this helps.
 
If the channels are on direct, then it dosen't matter if things are panned left or right.

Vert, I'm curious here, so you are trying to record guitar and drums at the same time. This might be what you are doing and already know but... one way to do this (there is always another way)
pan all the drum channels hard Left (or right) record on track 1 (or 2) Pan the guitar hard left, record it direct on another channel. If you do this and it's 'bleeding' then maybe you have a bad pan pot. Are you recording the guitar nad drums in the same room? (just wanting to rule out that it simply isn't bleed over just from the mics)

-jhe
 
I don't experience any problems while recording direct, but that's not really an option because I need to route 3 signals from the drums into one channel. You're right, James, in that what you described is what I've already tried without success. Very frustrating.

Oh well, I'll work with it again tomorrow and see what happens. Thanks for the help guys, I'll let you know what else happens, if anything.

Adam
 
Here's your answer

I've been there.

If you have three channels (say, 1-3) panned left and recording to track one, and one channel (4) panned right and recording to track 2, you should NOT experience bleed (other than natural acoustic bleed if you are recording in the same room). [To be positive, you could record the 4th channel into track 4, but if your machine is OK it shouldn't really be a problem to send it to track 2].

BUT, you CANNOT record three channels of drums to track 1 and one channel of guitar to track 3--the tracks will combine, because tracks 1 and 3 are both on the left buss. And so the signals from the channels will combine, at equal levels. The ONLY way to avoid this is to go direct, which is not an option for you.

It sounds to me like you're saying you're trying to record direct on one channel only. I don't think that's an option--it's all direct, or none.
 
MM2, You can definitely record direct on some channels and
from L/R buss on other channels simultaneously.

Problem is, even when you record direct on 1 channel,
the signal is still sent to the Pan, so if you don't
Pan away from the BUSS that you're putting your other
instruments on, it will mix.

Vurt, Sounds like you've tried this already with your
guitar on Channel 3. Have you tried with guitar on
Channel 2, 1, or 4 ? That might eliminate a bad Pan
pot on Channel 3.

Also, which instruments are bleeding to what tracks?

-Chris
 
I don't have the exact machine (I use a 464), but if you could record "direct" on one channel only, that would seem to be against why you would need to use the "direct mode" in the first place--to record 3 or 4 instruments to their own separate tracks; where, as James HE points out above, it shouldn't matter which way anything is panned, because the signal is being routed directly from the channel to the track. There's no need for a "buss." So, you can record in direct mode, where what goes the channel goes to the same-numbered track and ONLY to that track. If you do not enable the direct mode, then you can still record channels 1-4 to tracks 1-4, except that 1 & 3 and 2 & 4 will be bled together.
 
MM2,
Using "direct" on 1 channel and the buses on the other
channels may make sense if you want a single instrument on 1 track, but multiple other instruments mixed on another track.

Example.
Channel 1: Guitar (we want this by itself)
Channel 2: Drum mic1
Channel 3: Drum mic2
Channel 4: Bass

Put Track 1 on Direct to record Guitar direct to Track 1.
Put Track 2 on Bus R

Pan Channels 2,3,4 to RIGHT
Pan Channel 1 to LEFT.

If you do not Pan Channel 1 Hard Left, the guitar will bleed onto track 2. Although, there should be no way for the other instruments (on Track2) to bleed over to track 1 because track 1 takes only from Channel 1.

-Chris
 
Cool Chris,

Your method is the same method I prescribed originally (just different track/channel #s) and it WILL work.

But really, you shouldn't even need to be in Direct mode if your guitar is panned left and your drums are panned right, and you're only sending them to two tracks, one on the left buss and one on the right. Their respective signals will be sent the appropriate tracks and remain separate.

My understanding of Direct mode is this: You need to record from at least 3 inputs at once, and you need them to be separate--so tracks one and three will not combine, nor will 2 and 4. Because the channel inputs are going DIRECTLY into their respectively-numbered tracks. Whereas if Direct mode is NOT on, tracks one and three will combine, because the channel numbers don't correspond to the track numbers--they are told to simply go to the left or right buss (hence channels 2 thru 4 can be sent to track 2 in your ex.)

But as I said, my machine is different. And you may be right about the need to pan while in Direct mode.

Round and round we go!
 
vurt

VURT,
I'm not sure if this will help,but I was having a similar problem on my 424MKII. It turned out that I was not using the monitor section properly. you see, this is were the second signal was coming from. Its been a while since I've used that unit(I went digital),so I can't recall the particulares,but I do know that it took me some time to get a handle on the monitor settup. I went over and over that manual section until I stumbled onto the cure. wish I could be more specific, but give it a shot.

CALO
 
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