Tascam MS16 tape tension values

[Twangtone]

Hi all Tascam Heads,

I am alligning my MS-16 and would like to know the right tape tension values.

One Tascam manual states 160g back tensionin Play mode if the takeup reel has more tape than the supply reel. The tension of the take up reel should then be 130gr running in Edit mode.

Another manual for the same machine states 210gr on both sides with equal tape amounts on every reel....
I measure with my calibrated Tentel at equal reels only 80gr in Play mode. So what's wrong??

 

[miroslav]

Personally...I wouldn't touch the tension unless you are seeing some kind of issues.
Trying to get a very, very old machine up to the manual's specs isn't always the best approach. You do the basic electronic alignment, and check the rest, but the key is how does it operate. If OK...then leave it alone.
IOW...don't just get hung up on the numbers in the manual and trying to hit those targets.

 

[Twangtone]

Well, an older tape machine can easily be aligned to its specs, as long a you have the right values.
I found these values now and set the tension at equal reels to 200gr for both sides, measured with a Tentelometer.
Now I have consistant windings on both reels.

 

[miroslav]

Well, an older tape machine can easily be aligned to its specs, as long a you have the right values.
I found these values now and set the tension at equal reels to 200gr for both sides, measured with a Tentelometer.
Now I have consistant windings on both reels.

I'm glad it worked out to you...the point I was making is that having the right values is only part of the battle with older gear, because odds are, there's been spec-drift due to age in both the electronics and the mechanics, and sometimes you target one area to bring back to OEM spec...and you put other things further out of whack.

I was just saying that unless there's an actual problem you need to fix...sometimes leaving it alone is the better option.
There's folks that will spend endless effort and time trying to get every aspect and component back to 100% factory spec...and for some things, like tape decks where you have wear with the mechanical stuff it's not always possible...yet people will still want to, and then it gets more complicated than it was.
A lot of the specs also have a working range...along with some optimal setting. If it's in the working range, I don't mess with it unless I know it's really doable without side effects.
I go with the mindset that sometimes it's better to "leave the rust in place"...

I've got my MX-80 that has a very minor tension "flutter" on one side, when going in one particular direction (can't recall which at the moment)...and while I have all the tools and the manual and the specs...it has zero effect on operation, and the reels spool very well, so I've never been motivated to adjust the tension for that minor issue.
The funniest thing to me with the deck is that when I wind the tape at fast RW or FW speeds...the tape windings stack perfect, almost a mirror finish to the spool.
When I've done a slower library wind...the tape stacks less perfectly. *shrug*
I have no motivation to chase that issue.

 

[Chip Whitley]

Hi guys, I'm having a problem with my newly acquired Tascam MS16 that I am pretty sure is a tension thing. It's likely something that probably happened during transport home as I went and picked this deck up in Canada(16 hrs away). When I got it home, I loaded some tape up(tails out) and started rewinding onto the supply reel. This MS-16 was setup for SM911 RMGI, while I use ATR. The reel I threw on had 1k/10k tones on it that I printed from my console to tape using my previous MS-16 so I was curious to see what the differences, if any, would be. It played back about -6dB lower than on the previous machine and the VU meters seemed to bobble ever so slightly during playback. I didn't hear any pitch variation on the playback, however I never actually listened to music - just the tones so far. ANYWAY, my actual problem:

While in 'RWD' I press 'STOP' and then 'PLAY' pretty quickly as I have always done. Doing this, the tape will slow and stop from 'RWD' and enter straight into 'PLAY' pretty much, but it works. If the tape is at a standing stop and I enter 'PLAY' it just jumps for a second and then stops immediately.

Unfortunately as soon as I was getting into all of this I had to leave for a family function so I wasn't able to test from different positions on the tape and listen to actual audio, so on and so forth. I don't know if it makes any difference but I do have the AQ-65 remote hooked up and this problem happens whether it is on or off, and happens from both play buttons(transport and remote). I've looked this forum over and found some good stuff referencing MS-16 tape tension values(such as this thread) but nothing about this specific problem.

From looking at the manual I can see there are trim pots I can adjust for back tension on repro, I'm guessing this is where the source of my problem is. The thing I am worried about is, I can't just adjust that until it works can I? Won't that put possible additional stress or wear on the tape and/or heads? Do I HAVE to have a tentelometer? If anyone here has the Tentelometer specified for the MS-16 is there anyway someone would rent that out? If even putting a hefty deposit on it? I'm ordering some spring scales per the manual, is this the best course of action? Thanks for any help you guys can give on this one, thanks!

 

[miroslav]

Not sure that a quick jump/stop from play is specifically a tension related issue...?
There's some MS-16 guys here...they may chime in.

You should spend some time going over it and testing before making adjustments.
I don't think anything happened during transport...unless the deck was heavily bumped or dropped. A ride in the car is not going to cause any problems, assuming it wasn't a real bumpy ride.

 

[Chip Whitley]

In talking to Randy Blevins about my MCI deck, I caught wind of a man called Don Cruise, he was a tech for Tascam from the mid 70's on I believe? Anyway, in talking to him and trying to diagnose my problem over the phone he was thinking the same thing as me; tension issue. I asked him all about spring scales and tentelometers, but to my surprise he said that spring scales were somewhat archaic and would get you in the ballpark and tenelometers a little better. Besides all that he said the factory specs and values listed in the manual are really only practical when trying to setup a new deck. Head wear and a bunch of little different elements effect what the tension needs to be now that the heads are assuredly 'played down' a bit.

The effect of all of this, he said when he's running tension and alignment on a deck, you really need to get a feel for it and know what you like out of it/how to get the best results from your deck. So he said to print a 10k(or above, but not below) tone and monitor the repro head. You're looking for the needle on the VU to stop jittering and be completely still. When you've achieved this, if you have a scope you can further fine tune but that this process should get you in there.

So I did want to share that little bit in case any other MS-16 guys out there that might be experiencing the same thing. I did forget to ask him something while I was on the phone with him, I was hoping maybe someone here can steer me in A direction.

When adjusting the tension values, I can adjust the Supply or Take Up side. Is there anyway to know which side might be causing the problem? Say that my Repro tension value is a little low but I adjust the Take Up side and it fixes my problem, does that present a problem of uneven head wear or putting any kind of undue stress on any mechanics? I would tend to think that adjusting either of the values influences the other, sort of like tuning a drum head or putting a tire on a car in a way.

Interested to see some of the brain trust here chime in before I throw down some alignment. I really appreciate any words of wisdom someone might have on this, thanks.

 

[miroslav]

...he said the factory specs and values listed in the manual are really only practical when trying to setup a new deck. Head wear and a bunch of little different elements effect what the tension needs to be now that the heads are assuredly 'played down' a bit.

The effect of all of this, he said when he's running tension and alignment on a deck, you really need to get a feel for it and know what you like out of it/how to get the best results from your deck.

Right...that's what I was getting at earlier...and I've heard that from other guys who know tape decks. Sometimes a newbie to tape decks will buy a 30-year old deck and attempt to use factory specs as the target values, and often make matters worse...considering that the deck will not ever be able to completely match factory spec, unless it's one of those NOS basement finds, and even then, some of the electronic components will have faded just from sitting.

AFA your question...I think you can look at the tape during RW or FW and see which way and which side of the transport the tape is less smooth.

Like on my MX-80...my take up side will show a slight tremble in the lower edge of the tape during high speed winding. So I think there's maybe a slight tension issue there...but it's so minor, that I have no real interest in trying to "fix" it.
At some point I want to do a complete alignment and calibration check-up...and maybe then I'll consider looking at that too. Of course, it also varies on how much tape is on/off each reel...so I think maybe some if it could be related to the actual metal reels being slightly out of balance, and not an actual tension issue.
I've had some reels flying so whisper smooth...others will have some wobble no matter how much I try to adjust the flanges...so I think its a slight weight imbalance in the reel, and not a bend in the flanges. Like a car tire...