Sync Question

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mbuster

mbuster

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I'm trying to send some tracks from a standalone digital recorder, (BR8) into Sonar. I've got the BR8 synced up to Sonar, with the BR8 as the Master, because it only has a MIDI out port. I can control playback with the BR8, but Sonar won't record from the BR8. Its not a question of inputs hooked up right, because it will record fine as long as I'm not using MIDI sync. However, when I use Sonar as the master to control my Drum machine, everything works just peachy. Can Sonar not record audio when it is the slave? Hopefully I'm just missing some setup thing or something, I'm just getting started with Sonar and I don't really know it yet.
 
If the BR8 is the master, then you need to somehow send a MMC command to Sonar to record. Does the BR8 send MMC commands? If it does, I think all you have to do is arm whatever tracks in Sonar and then make sure your tracks in BR8 are not armed. Hit record and Sonar should record.
 
No it doesn't seem to work that way. To get Sonar to respond to MMC, you have to first tell it to record. You arm the tracks and then click on record like normal. Then down in the little taskbar it says, Waiting for MIDI. Then you can press play on your master and they will both start playing. The record level meter shows my input, everything looks like it's actually recording, but it's not.
 
I'm not strong in midi at all, but I was wondering, could sonar in this case be expecting midi input to record and not audio?
-But then you did say it recorded fine if you just manually play the BR8 and record on sonar?
Wayne
 
Actually, I just found the answer to my problem last night. According to Scotty G's book, SONAR 2 Power, Sonar will only record midi info in this configuration, not audio. It will record audio if the roles are reversed, though. Looks like I'm SOL , oh well. Thanks anyway fellas.
 
mbuster,

I've got a Roland VS-840EX (and Sonar XL). After reading your post yesterday whilst I was at work, I started to get worried that I wouldn't be able to do one of the first things I planned on doing.. getting all my tracks off my 840 and onto Sonar.

Straight after dinner last night I sat down at my computer and did the following.... connected the MIDI out of my 840Ex to the MIDI in on my Edirol DA-2496. Ran an optical out from my VS-840Ex into the Edirol (tracks 7/8). I panned 1 track hard left and the other track hard right. I opened a new standard project and deleted the 2 MIDI tracks. Brought up the Sync windows in Sonar and selected MIDI at 30 frames per second (I think that this is a standard rate and may vary on the BR8). I went to the properties of the sync on my 840 and made sure it was sending MIDI Clock. Set up my inputs in Sonar, pressed the record button in SONAR then pressed play on my 840.

This worked. Sound was being played (and recorded). I didn't get a chance to try it with more tracks, however it should be the same. Just remember to change the sync to audio when playing it.

I was reading the Sonar Manual at work yesterday (I only bought this software last week) and it say's that with MIDI sync, "Note that audio playback is not supported when using MIDI Sync with SONAR as the slave" Playback being the operative word!!

I hope this works for you too.

Porter
 
Interesting thread.:) I almost never see any midi here, but I'd like to know more about this kind of setup.
Is the midi sync primarilly used for song position so the tracks will line up with other midi devices? But the audio sync still has to be set to the spdif or lightipe output right?
Thanks in advance.
Wayne
 
mixsit,

I'm planning on transferring all my track I've already completed on my Roland VS840 onto the computer to 're-mix/re-master' them all. A couple (probably all of them) I'm going to re-record so that the tracks don't have the Roland compression on them.

I'm using the MIDI sync to sync all the audio tracks in SONAR.

Porter
 
I assume that would be because you can't get all the tracks at once-(?)
But don't you still need the audio to be clocked at the sound card to the sending Roland? I didn't think midi was tight enough for a clock source.
Wayne
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the audio, all that really needs to be sync'ed is the start. All the tracks are already on the 840. Just as long as they are transferred into SONAR with the same start time they should be right.

Porter
 
You're likely right on. :D I need to get the prog up and poke around in yet another area I've never used.:)
I think where i got lost is that unless you needed to align seperate sets of tracks (in a seperate recording pass), or sync the tracks back to something outside of the prog, it wouldn't mater where they started.(?)
:confused: :)
Wayne
 
I do this with my Roland VS840 all of the time. I set up not MIDI sync, but MTC sync on the VS840, as master. If I haven't already set Sonar to use MTC/SMTPE as it's clock source, it senses the source from the VS840 and asks if I'd like to switch to it. From there on out, it's clock goes wherever the VS840 clock source takes it...perfect sync. I transfer 2 tracks at a time this way, and they all end up perfectly synchronized.

So, Sonar set to SMTPE/MTC for it's sync clock and the VS840, or in your case the BR8, set to transmit MTC clock....and all will be fine! :cool:

And, Porter, if you leave it on Audio sync and try to transfer from the BR8, at least based on my experience from the VS840, the sync will be slightly off, just enough to cause the random digital clicks and pops, which are much more annoying than analog clicks and pops, for sure. Of course, the BR8's capabilities might be better than those of the VS840, but I'm willing to bet that you're going to have to use MTC sync, with the BR8 being the master, and Sonar the slave.
 
tntkemp,

When I mentioned Audio Sync I was only referring to playing back the tracks.

When playing back tracks would there be a difference between setting the clock source to MIDI Sync and Audio/Internal?

Porter
 
Gave it another shot last night between other projects. I did get Sonar to record audio using the BR8 as the master. But, strangely, the visual representation of the audio tracks did not line up with the sound, and after only about two and a half tracks, I got dropouts. I rarely get dropouts , even with lots of 24/96 tracks and tons of plugins. Then, when I try to playback these new trracks without the BR8, It sounds like the chipmunks. What gives?
 
Please forgive me if I'm missing the problem-:) I am just here to learn also.:)
Two points keep comming up in my mind on this.
One is that midi sync is not a sample-clock sync. From the spot in the manual I read last night, Sonar apperently can go into auto- record via a signal from midi, but only reffers to it as being a method of starting in sync with other external devices. What I could not find is where or how you get both the midi and the sample-rate clock routing set. Could be that you still need the s/c to get it's clock as slave from the digital input?
Second, do you need these tracks to play in sync later with other external boxes? Would it be simpler just to use regular digi-input sync?
Thanks
Wayne
 
Mixsit,
That is probably true about MIDI sync. I was talking about MTC sync. It is timing specific. Wherever the master goes, the slave(s) go as well, to the exact beat. It does use the MIDI connection, but it is indeed timing specific...not just telling the computer to start now, and stop now... I can watch both clocks in SMPTE format, and they are exact to the second!

However, Porter,
I thought about what I had stated here earlier...I was making a big assumption...that I might be incorrect on.... I was assuming that mbuster was trying to do this the same way that I do all of the time, via S/PDIF (coax or lightpipe). In this case, clock sources are extremely important, since everything is in the digital world. However, if Mbuster is bringing it into his computer via standard analog connections, it shouldn't make any difference, I wouldn't think, as long as you are using the MTC sync on the BR8, VS840, or whatever external source to keep these synchronized.

There again, if you're just moving the whole recording over as 2 channels of audio, and don't care whether or not these end up on the same beat/timing/etc. once they land on the PC, then you don't have to use MTC, or any other kind of sync. Just push play on the external device and record on the PC. Keep in mind, though, that Analog = some level of quality loss, and that all of your tracks will be running into the computer as a stereo mix, so if you had hoped to tweak these tracks on the computer....it won't work this way....unless you pre-mix before doing so, then only master the complete mix on the computer.

That's why I use S/PDIF and attach the MIDI out of the VS840 to the MIDI in of the computer, and use MTC sync with VS840 as master and Sonar as slave.
 
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