Summing & Clipping in Virtual Mains

[dirtythermos]

Is it normal to have to pull down each track 10 - 20 dB to avoid clipping the virtual main? I'm tracking everything between -6 and -12, but I'm having to play it back between -20 and -30 just to avoid clipping the mix bus. It seems like there is very little headroom. This is in HS2004.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dachay2tnr]

Obviously the sum of multiple tracks is going to be louder than each track individually, however, I can't answer the question as it will be project specific.

Are you saying it is clipping for the entire track, or it has sporadic clips as you playback?

If the latter, you probably have one or two tracks that could use some compression. Watch where the clips occur and see what is happening musically at that point (snare hit, loud vocal note, specific bass note). That will give you a clue of where to look.

Usually compression or a volume envelope will help. If it is a specific, recurring note on the bass guitar, I might look to use eq to tame that note.

 

[dirtythermos]

Yeah, it's the entire track. Transients are not the problem. It just "feels" like the mix bus has no headroom. I have some experience mixing, but am new to digital mixing in software. I'm just wondering if it's normal to attenuate all your tracks 10 to 20 dB.

This is the same for every project I have. With 8-10 tracks, the output of each track is around -20 to -35 dB, just to keep the virtual main between -6 and 0.

 

[dachay2tnr]

I don't know that there is a "normal" for this. It depends on your tracking to a large degree. Sounds like you must be getting a pretty good starting signal.

While your Track settings seem a bit on the low side, I would suggest exporting a wave file and checking the peaks and RMS volume. If everything looks good, personally I wouldn't worry too much about what the Track levels are set to.

 

[Teacher]

DIRTY Yes that is perfectly normal. In order to get good digitals mixes that don't sound small and tiny you must gain stage properly after that everything is easier...I try to let my master fader PEAK(not avg) at around -3 db(before 2bus compression/limiting)

 

[crosstudio]

dirtythermos, i still think that your results are strange.

my tracking levels are similar to yours but i'm not pulling down on the faders in the same manner. i guess the question is how many instruments do you have sounding off simultaneously thereby summing such that the peak encroaches 0db.

having the kick, snare, cymbal, bass, and guitar having the bite of their sound coming in at the same time would cause the spike, but having a limiter on the main would prevent that spike from going over 0db.

BTW, are you recording in 16bit or 24bit?

 

[dirtythermos]

I'm recording in 24-bit. I don't want to put a limiter on the main because someday I am going to want to have things professionally mastered. I want to be mixing with that end in mind, and not relying on a limiter that would give the mastering engineer less to work with.

At this point, I'm wondering if I have some sub-sonic frequencies somewhere that could be eating up the headroom. I've been playing with a spectrum analyzer, but it doesn't help much because I'm not sure what each instrument is supposed to look like. For instance, my bass guitar has some serious energy around 60Hz (not a ground loop, though ), but from what I've read on this BBS that may be normal, and even desired.

 

[crosstudio]

i understand your concern and i think you are playing it the right way. i do my own mastering.

i hope i'm not insulting your intelligence with the following statement:
you mentioned in a previous email that its not the transients. have you taken a good (i.e. zoomed in) look at the individual wave files? have you also set your playback meters to show both peak and rms?

 

[Bulls Hit]

Have you tried cutting the bass around 60Hz and seeing what effec that has on your levels?

 

[Strryder]

Are you normalizing the individual tracks after recording? doing so could certainly cause this type of problem.

Have you tried using the trim controls to lower the volume of the wave files before the signal gets routed thru the channel strip? doing this should allow you to move the faders up to a more easily workable range.

 

[dirtythermos]

Nope, I'm not normalizing, and using the trim controls doesn't solve the problem, right? It just attenuates in a different place (before the insert instead of after).

I think I've found the problem, though - the drum loops I'm using (the only track I didn't record myself, and the one I assumed was fine since it came from a "real" studio). Look at the spectrum analysis for the drum track.

I'm pretty sure this is the problem. I put some serious EQ on it and was able to boost the levels of all my other tracks 6-10 dB and get a similar mix without clipping the mains.

PS, crosstudio, I was not insulted.