Gain staging ok but main bus clipping??

[Farview]

With floating point math, there is no such thing as clipping the master. The only thing you could clip is the converter on the way out to your speakers, or exporting to a fixed bit file.

Having the master set at unity serves no practical purpose, and simply turning it down makes much more sense in context than adding a gain plugin on every individual track.

 

[Jack of Alderaan]

With floating point math, there is no such thing as clipping the master. The only thing you could clip is the converter on the way out to your speakers, or exporting to a fixed bit file.

Having the master set at unity serves no practical purpose, and simply turning it down makes much more sense in context than adding a gain plugin on every individual track.

Actually i work with 24 bit audio..... ?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Actually i work with 24 bit audio..... ?

DAWs use floating point processing, even if the audio file is fixed point.

 

[Jack of Alderaan]

DAWs use floating point processing, even if the audio file is fixed point.

I didn't know that!! I just checked it and you are right, thanks. Ok so if i understand this correctly it means analog/digital input can clip, digital/analog output can clip...but any digital-only processing within my DAW won't clip?

 

[TalismanRich]

You can't really clip a 32bit float. It gives a theoretical 1528 dB of dynamic range, which would probably knock the earth off it's axis! With 24 bits, you've got 144dB which pretty darn large. It probably far exceeds the natural ambient noise level of just about any place you will be recording.

I have had clipping with recording at 24 bits, just because the input gain was far too high. It can really drive an AD converter crazy.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I didn't know that!! I just checked it and you are right, thanks. Ok so if i understand this correctly it means analog/digital input can clip, digital/analog output can clip...but any digital-only processing within my DAW won't clip?

Yep, something like that.

 

[ashcat_lt]

...but any digital-only processing within my DAW won't clip?

Well like when you go to render/bounce/whatever your DAW calls it and choose a fixed point format as destination, that can and will clip at 0dBFS.

I said I didn't want to get into the gain staging thing, and I still kind of don't, but...

Proper gain staging involves adjusting levels in such a way that you get as little noise as possible without too much unwanted distortion, basically period. This usually means getting as much gain as you're likely to need as soon in the signal chain as possible and trying not to turn things down just to turn them back up. It always means listening to what happens as you adjust the gain. The meters can't tell you how it sounds.

Now, when it comes to this silly idea about the "sweet spot" in analog modeled plugins, we usually don't have to worry so much about the noise (if a plugin adds noise that you can't turn off, don't use it), so all that really matters is the distortion part. And remember how I said "too much unwanted distortion"? Well, if you didn't want at least some distortion, you certainly could pick a plugin that doesn't distort, but you picked one that does, so you must want some, so how much is do you want, and how much is too much? Meter can't tell you that. They often say that these plugins "sound best" with input levels around whatever they call 0dBVU (-18dbFS or whatever), but how can you say what sounds best for any given source through a given plugin in a given mix without listening? Meter can't tell you that.

And frankly, distortion doesn't care about the average levels that you're told to look at. It's the instantaneous sample peak levels which are most likely to approach or exceed the limits of the device, and the relationship between the average level you see on the VU meter and the peaks that are actually going to distort is different for different kind of inputs. A typical kick drum track which integrates to -18dBFS average is likely to peak well above 0, and distort most analog (modeled) devices pretty hard, while something like a sustained string pad probably won't have noticeable distortion until its average is quite a bit higher. Meter can't tell you that.

Listen to what you're doing. Turn the knobs til it sounds good.

 

[Farview]

Well like when you go to render/bounce/whatever your DAW calls it and choose a fixed point format as destination, that can and will clip at 0dBFS.

I said I didn't want to get into the gain staging thing, and I still kind of don't, but...

Proper gain staging involves adjusting levels in such a way that you get as little noise as possible without too much unwanted distortion, basically period. This usually means getting as much gain as you're likely to need as soon in the signal chain as possible and trying not to turn things down just to turn them back up. It always means listening to what happens as you adjust the gain. The meters can't tell you how it sounds.

Now, when it comes to this silly idea about the "sweet spot" in analog modeled plugins, we usually don't have to worry so much about the noise (if a plugin adds noise that you can't turn off, don't use it), so all that really matters is the distortion part. And remember how I said "too much unwanted distortion"? Well, if you didn't want at least some distortion, you certainly could pick a plugin that doesn't distort, but you picked one that does, so you must want some, so how much is do you want, and how much is too much? Meter can't tell you that. They often say that these plugins "sound best" with input levels around whatever they call 0dBVU (-18dbFS or whatever), but how can you say what sounds best for any given source through a given plugin in a given mix without listening? Meter can't tell you that.

And frankly, distortion doesn't care about the average levels that you're told to look at. It's the instantaneous sample peak levels which are most likely to approach or exceed the limits of the device, and the relationship between the average level you see on the VU meter and the peaks that are actually going to distort is different for different kind of inputs. A typical kick drum track which integrates to -18dBFS average is likely to peak well above 0, and distort most analog (modeled) devices pretty hard, while something like a sustained string pad probably won't have noticeable distortion until its average is quite a bit higher. Meter can't tell you that.

Listen to what you're doing. Turn the knobs til it sounds good.

+1