Studio Monitor Basics?

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ecc83 said:
Many of the cheap ones have two filter capacitors wired as a "Y" with the centre tap to earth. This can cause any incoming crap to be squirted into the ground wire and they also provide a handy inductor as an impedance back to the supply so that now your gear is sitting on a dirty ground!
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Interesting, thanks for explaining that.

--Ethan
 
Ethan Winer said:
The fraud is when a vendor claims subtle improvements in clarity, imaging, bass fullness, etc. That is a lie that's easy to disprove by simple measurements.

--Ethan
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yes ..... I'm somewhat of an audiophile and don't always agree with you but these things are silly. They also have just freakin' power cords that make the same claims. It's idiotic.
What about the 150' of the cheapest rolex the electrician could find the day he wired your home that's running thru the walls back to your breaker box?
And they also sale wall outlets that make the same ridiculous claims.

Over and above anything else ..... power supplies in all products take the wall voltage and convert it to what the unit requires .... in the process stuff like noise gets filtered out.
Any hum or noise you get isn't from the wall voltage. It's gonna be either RFI/EMF or self generated.
 
Lt. Bob said:
They also have just freakin' power cords that make the same claims. It's idiotic.
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It is idiotic, but you have to wonder why some people are so adamant they hear an improvement when it's simply not possible for the sound to have changed at all. Whether you agree with me or not :D I'm convinced this is the same reason people swear they hear an improvement with other things that could possibly make a difference but probably don't.

--Ethan
 
Ethan Winer said:
It is idiotic, but you have to wonder why some people are so adamant they hear an improvement when it's simply not possible for the sound to have changed at all. Whether you agree with me or not :D I'm convinced this is the same reason people swear they hear an improvement with other things that could possibly make a difference but probably don't.

--Ethan
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people like to think that things like what they see and hear are absolutes and they're not.
Because they're not if you buy a 1000 dollar power cord .... take a few moments to change it ..... you're predisposed to 'hear' a difference and your mind makes it 'real'.
They recently had a series on the Brain and how it does things called Brain Games and it's pretty amazing how many things you think you see or hear and actually don't.

And I do agree with you on this aspect of sound. It's more made up in your head than people realize or can even accept. Your day to day mood even affects it.
Hell ..... even though I'm a vinyl guy and a bit of an audiophile I don't believe that means checking my brain in at the door.
Green pens for CD's .... Mpingo discs! :rolleyes: ..... power cords .... directional cables ..... holy crap there's some goofy stuff out there and it all costs stupid money.
 
I'd almost forgotten about the green CD pens, and somehow managed to miss hearing about "Mpingo discs" until now. Googling it yields some amusing stuff.
 
sjjohnston said:
I'd almost forgotten about the green CD pens, and somehow managed to miss hearing about "Mpingo discs" until now. Googling it yields some amusing stuff.
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I do think Mpingo discs were THE goofiest tweak I ever heard of. And they would make a big deal out of always using an odd number of discs ..... never 2 or 4 ...... always 3 or 5 ...... good lord.... 40 of the things wouldn't make any difference.
 
Ethan Winer said:
It is idiotic, but you have to wonder why some people are so adamant they hear an improvement when it's simply not possible for the sound to have changed at all. Whether you agree with me or not :D I'm convinced this is the same reason people swear they hear an improvement with other things that could possibly make a difference but probably don't.
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It works in the same way that coloured and flavoured water works when you are told that it is medicine that will cure you.

Because you *think* it will cure you, it often actually does.
 
i am too on this, I'm betting balanced cables alone will solve the problem.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I do think Mpingo discs were THE goofiest tweak I ever heard of.
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I think the Acoustic ART bowls have those beat:

System | Synergistic Research

$3,000 for a set of five "saki cups" that do nothing is not only a waste of time, it's over the top expensive. I call stuff like this placebo-based products because that's their entire operating principle. :D

Yet reviewers and consumers are certain they hear an improvement:

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/featured/acoustic-art-analogue-room-treatment/

These are rich too:

http://www.shakti-innovations.com/hallograph.htm

Note the semi-famous mastering engineer who is endorsing this nonsense.

--Ethan
 
It drives me crazy that people believe this crap. But it is also a conundrum for moi.

As a session player/piano tuner/studio guy I rely on my ears and my discernment of small changes in EQ and volume levels and I do have good trained ears. I'm an excellent piano tuner for example and I do manage fine mixes and back in BR had several engineers that would call me to get my opinion on mixes and sound.

But the more I learn about sound the more I have to question some of what I hear.
Now it becomes a matter of deciding what I really hear vs. what I only think I hear.
How do I tell which is which?

Ultimately I'm gonna have to always go with my ears but I know they're not an absolute and, in fact, could be totally full of crap.
What am I to do?
 
"Ultimately I'm gonna have to always go with my ears but I know they're not an absolute and, in fact, could be totally full of crap.
What am I to do?"

What to do Bob? Follow scientific principles as far as you possibly can.

You must have an open mind but a very sceptical one. Phenomena must be repeatable. If the conditions are the same today as they were yesterday and the result is different then the problem is YOU!

Results, (Green pens whatever!) must be verified by an independent source and peer reviewed before they become a working theory (N.B. not "fact". There are no absolute facts in science, just theories that no one has managed to disprove for a very long time!)

Our senses, especially hearing, are no good at objective, absolute measurement. What we hear is VERY dependent on level, level/frequency, level/frequency history, spectral content, blood alcohol level, and the duration for which we are exposed to a particular sound, and many other factors.

We are pretty good at differential judgements. Now I know practically jack about tuning a piano but you start with a reference, a tuning fork (or is it a digital generator these days?). You compare a note to that then "lay a scale" referencing one note against a previous one that has been accurately set? You will of course "learn" notes and scales. Just as we file away telephone numbers and myriad other facts, oft repeated "data" gets stuffed into the "back brain" and this can be used a s sort of portable "reference" but be wary, it does not stay there forever and DOES get corrupted!

When I was working with valves, day in, day out, I had the pinouts and characteristics of over a score of popular valves in my head. Over the years that has dwindled but since I got back into valves a year ago I found a quick "refresher" slotted the information back in quite quickly (only for "audio" valves tho'. The TV types has gone for good).

Then there is one sure test for those that make outrageous claims for audio kit. "Prove it" aka: "Put up or shut up".

Were I suddenly to become very wealthy one thing I would do is order up some of these snake oil products especially the very expensive ones and then ship them back under our Distance Trading Regulations. I am sure I would not get my £2000 back immediately but I should take the matter all the way through the courts right up to getting a high court sheriff's writ. If more people did this I bet the likes of Russ A and co' would cease trading or at least mollify their stupid claims!

Dave.
 
jimmys69 said:
But the reality of an individuals' perception is just a unique opinion of what the dood thinks is real-from his perspective.

Just saying. :)
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I agree. Sometimes it doesn't matter what is real, what is perceived is what people will believe. If people think this kind of stuff sounds better, pretty hard to convince them other wise (or should anyone try to convince them). Good sound is a perception. Why does a tuned guitar sound better than an un-tuned guitar?

But, I think what was presented here on the board was clear. There is no bases of fact that any of this really improves the sound. So, it is just a perception.
 
DM60 said:
I agree. Sometimes it doesn't matter what is real, what is perceived is what people will believe. If people think this kind of stuff sounds better, pretty hard to convince them other wise (or should anyone try to convince them). Good sound is a perception. Why does a tuned guitar sound better than an un-tuned guitar?

But, I think what was presented here on the board was clear. There is no bases of fact that any of this really improves the sound. So, it is just a perception.
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Different strokes for different folks... That is really what it comes down to. If you decide to spend money on smoke and mirrors, well then you enjoy the comfort in covering all bases. Debates aside, I tend to spend a bit more on stuff when I can afford, just to make sure. Don't mean that it is any better, but I sleep well.
 
Lt. Bob said:
What am I to do?
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I agree with Dave - be scientific when possible. The method I use explained below is from my Audio Expert book.

--Ethan

The Audio Expert said:
Another useful self-test that's very reliable is simply closing your eyes while switching between two sources with software. When I want to test myself blind, I set up two parallel tracks in SONAR and assign the Mute switches for those tracks to the same Mute Group while the Mute switches are in opposite states. That is, one track plays while the other is muted, and vice versa. Each time the button is clicked, the tracks switch. This lets me change smoothly from one track to the other without interruption or clicks. I put the mouse cursor over either track's Mute button, close my eyes, then click a bunch of times at random without paying attention to how many times I clicked. This way, I don't know which version will play first. Then I press the space bar to start playback, still with my eyes closed, and listen carefully to see if I can really tell which source is which as I switch back and forth. When I open my eyes, I can see which track is currently playing.

Whether you're using a single-blind, double-blind, or ABX test, it's important to understand a few basic requirements. First, the volume of both sources much be matched exactly, to within 0.1 dB. When all else is equal, people generally pick the louder (or brighter) version as sounding better, unless, of course, it was already too loud or bright. Indeed, people sometimes report a difference even in an "A/A" test, where both sources are the same. And just because something sounds "better," it's not necessarily higher fidelity. Boosting the treble and bass often makes music sound better, but that's certainly not more faithful to the original source material.

It's also important to test using the same musical performance. A common mistake I see is comparing microphones or preamps by recording someone playing a guitar part with one device, then switching to the other device and performing again. The same subtle details we listen for when comparing gear also change from one performance to another—for example, a bell-like attack of a guitar note or a certain sheen on a brushed cymbal. Nobody can play or sing exactly the same way twice or remain perfectly stationary. So that's not a valid way to test microphones, preamps, or anything else. Even if you could sing or play the same, a change in microphone position of even half an inch is enough to make a real difference in the frequency response the microphone captures.
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Ethan Winer said:
I agree with Dave - be scientific when possible. The method I use explained below is from my Audio Expert book.

--Ethan
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well ..... I thought I was clear but ..... mixing and small EQ changes and small panning changes etc., some of which I specifically mentioned in my post, don't lend themselves to scientific proof. They are a matter of the mixers' ears and his taste. Oftentimes there is no right or wrong ..... just different decisions that can be made. And if I don't really know for sure what I actually hear as opposed to what I think I hear ..... the whole thing gets a lot more vague.

As for A/B'ing things ...... I never have time nor interest in doing that that.
I own what I own and use what I have.
 
Lt. Bob said:
mixing and small EQ changes and small panning changes etc., some of which I specifically mentioned in my post, don't lend themselves to scientific proof.
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Of course. Mixing is an art, so there's no right or wrong. Now, you may change your mind five minutes or five days later and wonder "Whatever was I thinking?!" I've done that many times. But this is very different from learning if tweaks such as the Mpingo discs really change the sound, which is what I thought you were talking about.

--Ethan
 
Ethan Winer said:
But this is very different from learning if tweaks such as the Mpingo discs really change the sound, which is what I thought you were talking about.

--Ethan
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yes .... that is what we were talking about at that point but my direction changed.

I suppose partly 'cause I couldn't see any reason why anyone would think it was even possible that Mpingo discs would do anything so I wasn't trying to figure out how to establish that! :D
To me even the idea that they would make a difference in ludicrous.
 
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