studio construction: plz help

[jhbrandt]

Hard to remember if it was an MCI or not, it could have been, it was back in 1985-1986 and most of the newer desks in town were Neve, Harrisons, MCI and SSL. I thought Jim Varney had something to do with the place, could be wrong, that was many brain cells ago. lol

I did most of my stuff at Larry Rodger’s place “Studio 19” on a sweet Trident 80B; man I loved that desk, sounded nice and was easy to get around; was a busy room with the Welk Music group back then. Larry had all that great old tube stuff from Memphis.

I also remember a jingle session at Amy Grants place in Franklin TN and the “super beast” Trident A Range console. What an animal it was, you had to patch in everything in to get it to work, lol

The place that impressed most in the Nashville area was “The Castle” in Franklin. Built in an actual castle that once was owned by Al Capone, it was unreal. The SSL, Bosendorfer piano, the stone wall rooms, the hidden escape routes, outrageous studio.

I remember I went in as a "Second" in a studio on Music Row and the party going on was unreal. I forgot the name of the place, all I remember was all the walls were covered with Gold & Platinum Kansas albums, lost a lot of brain cells that night, lol

Nashville was a party town back then!

Sorry fellas, John asked about that place in Nashville and I had a flashback, Glory days!

Oh yeah, I'm not sure, but Gene'o wasnt' there yet, he was on 18th ave., that might have been Kirby Shelstead, who worked with Jim.

Yep, party-town indeed. Still is, as far as I know.. That's why we call it Nashvegas.
- Q: what's the first thing you hear from a musician in Nashville? -- A: "Would like fries that?"
Q: What do you do when a musician is ringing the doorbell?? -- A: "Take the pizza and Pay the man!"
- Sorry about that.

Cheers,
John

 

[wavewarrior]

"Take the pizza and Pay the man!" Classic!!

Sorry we hijacked you thread, they don't call it "Music City" for nothing, lol

 

[nomadbyfate]

"Take the pizza and Pay the man!" Classic!!

Sorry we hijacked you thread, they don't call it "Music City" for nothing, lol

by all means
while i try to gather all this info

 

[chronicle]

-- it is a fact of the physical properties of small enclosures... it is impossible to reproduce 20 Hz in a room that does not have ONE dimension of at LEAST about 38 feet.

Well, there you have it folks. For those of you who listen to music in rooms that do not have at least one dimension of 38' and have been missing that portion down to 20hz, you're shit out of luck. Same for those who listen over ipods and headphones. What I find really odd though, is how you hear ANY bass at all wearing headphones/ipods..if that is true. After all...we're talking a wavelength of the driver to your ear drum. So, with all due respect... WTF gives here John?

What this tells me..if true..is, for any room, the longest dimension determines the lowest frequency you can hear due to it's wavelength. Is that right John?


Geeezus....I guess that puts 90% of HR people in a real bad position. That is..if they're mixing music that has frequencies down to 20hz. Right?

 

[jhbrandt]

Rick,

You are absolutely correct! I left the word out - accurately - IOW; it is impossible to reproduce 20 Hz accurately in a room that does not have ONE dimension of at LEAST about 38 feet.

Sorry about that folks! and Thank you Rick for pointing this out.

To put it simply;
It is important to understand something about Critical Distance, Bass trapping, and the pressure zone of the room.

Side note:
Far too many people build look-alikes or copies. These usually have a diamond shape copied from Peter D'Antonio's RFZ designs, others copy different pieces of other designs that they like alot. A few get lucky, most do not. What is usually missing is the 'understanding' of what any particular design parameter does to the whole. Because a studio is not a collection of rooms, treatment, and equipment; it is a system. This system must function as a whole to work properly. But I digress.

Critical distance is defined as the distance that sound ceases to fall off at -6 dB per doubling of distance from the source. The source sound goes constant volume at it Dc (Critical Distance) - and the volume is the same everywhere in the room. This translates to 'MUD'.

It is extremely difficult to treat and/or trap sound that is in the pressure zone. Producing sound waves that exceed the dimensions of a critical listening room will only tend to mud things up. That is why I set the optimal dimensions for a 20 Hz room at about 38 feet. The full length of a 20 Hz sound wave is 56' - 4". Divide that by two and you get a half-wave. This is the lowest mode. A quarter-wave would fall into the constant volume of the pressure zone, IF YOU ARE IN A CONCRETE ENCLOSURE.
So, I take 20 Hz and multiply by the reciprocal of (SQRT)2 and get 14.1 Hz - The half-wave length of this is 39' - 10". That's where I get the 38 Feet. - It ensures a smooth transition from 20 Hz to the pressure zone and allows an easy roll-off on the sub.

Smooth response in the LF range from 20 Hz to 250 Hz detemines the quality of the room. This is the very reason why so many of the old control rooms sound very good. They are huge and the dimensions support a dense low frequency modal distribution.

So, if you can't get the size/volume then you have to be very careful about what to expect from frequencies below this dimensional threshold. (LOL - sounds like star trek) By dimensional, I mean Room Dimensions / room boundaries.

Another way to look at the pressure zone and the effects of critical distance is similar to what is experienced with Speaker-Boundary-Interference-Response and simillarly Listener-Boundary-Interference-Response. - Imagine yourself inside a perfectly polished mirror box with 6 sides.. floors, ceiling, and all the walls are mirrors. There you are standing or siting in you 'mix position'. Look around (if the walls are perfectly parallel) you will see 6 more of YOU. Now, put your speakers in their place.. HOLY COW! look at all those speakers now! So, in addition to your speakers, there are 12 more of them PLUS their multiple reflectons that go on forever into the distance!
Next imagine playing all of those speakers at the same time. You actually really DO this in an untreated room. THAT's what you're hearing!

Here's a thought for you; What if your walls, ceiling and floor are not exactly parallel, you could (theoretically) reduce the mirage images down to once on each surface, but I am not a fan of that approach as there are far too many variables and as humans, we don't like to sit with our head clamped in a vice. We like to move around.

Sorry, I get carried away on things..

So a pressure zone experience will be like bringing the mirror back in after the room is treated.. only for those lower frequencies. ok? That's where the mud comes from. I hope that you get the picture that I'm trying to paint. I don't want to put up crazy formulas that most people won't get. We designers often put up lots of the formulas to impress other designers. - Reminds me of a saying that I heard in Nashville - "if you can't dazzel them with brilliance - baffle them with bullshit!" I'm not gonna do that. ok?

More to come...

Cheers,
John

 

[wavewarrior]

I'm no designer, but I've cut tracks in some pretty big rooms over the years and I gotta 100% agree John, them big old control rooms do sound better and they seem to have huge "sweet" spots on the mains too.

I'm building my little home studio, I know it will never sound like the real pro-rooms I've been in; it can't because of its size. Now that doesn't mean a home recording studio can't get lucky and maybe record good demo for a hit song someday. I think people should be realistic with their room's potential capabilities and have reasonable expectations.

Tomorrow my Omni room testing mic arrives, so testing will start, my goal is to just get the room as smooth and nice sounding as I can, without spending a fortune doing it. At the end of they day all the technical in the world don't make hit songs; the "vibe" does.

JH, "you can paint a turd, but ya can't polish it" lol "that dog will hunt" lol
"know what I mean..... Vern" lol

 

[jhbrandt]

Just so that people don't get the wrong idea:

You CAN do AMAZING things with your home studio.
You CAN, with the right talent, mix the greatest record ever mixed, produce the greatest song ever produced, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

it IS the wave of the future - especially with the portability now available with some equipment. We can record on location (nice big place, concert hall, rented cathedral, etc.) and mix at home. This is where the 'BRAIN' takes over, working many times faster than our fastest computers to analyse and determine the choice of action/EQ/level etc. Even adjusting for frequencies that are not heard based on the interaction that we subconsciously 'know' is happening in the room... All the best engineers are able to do this. (I am not ) - well, a little. yes..
But it is up to YOU guys to do that work. My job is only to make it EASIER for you to work so that you can get the job done FASTER and BETTER.

Cheers,
John

 

[nomadbyfate]

If another wall must be constructed on the 16.4' side, I wouldn't count on much more than 16.08 feet... 193 inches for width.. or length for that matter. 193" X 173" X 96" isn't too bad. Just plan on a ton to trapping.. you HAVE to anyway in a concrete bunker. - Plan on losing about 10-12 inches all around the room perimeter.. the ceiling will have to be trapped down at least 8 inches.. 12 inches will get you to the bottom of the beam. Fully absorptive ceiling. - lightweight 'fluffy' fiberglass only, covered with fabric.

these dims would give a volume of about 1800cu.ft but isnt the width pretty close to the length?? if this works then it would save a lot of space.
i contacted a factory that manufactures rockwool, how is it in comparison to fiberglass??

You are going to need membrane traps to treat below 120 Hz.

you mean in the ceiling??
also that beam is going to be bare, what kind of treatment should we apply for its reflections?

I only suggest this since there is nowhere to come & go except for the back wall of the CR. If you orient the CR so that it is sideways, you can have window into the tracking area.. and a door in the right position where it will not interfere with reflections and/or back wall treatment.

i dont get this part, window and door go on the rear wall?? that means concrete wall is front wall?

2500 cubic feet is a good room, I have always said that the smallest usable space is 1500 cubic feet for decent distribution with, of course, adequate treatment. (That means a really LOT of bass trapping). I think that you CAN get a decent room in there sideways. It won't be perfect as perfect starts with ceilings of at least 14', so we 'deal' with it.

Don't try to make a room 'fit' into a ratio criteria. They don't scale well anyway. But DO get the dimensions as good as you can so that you don't have 'built-in' issues.
When you get past about 59 kg/m2 or 12 lbs/ft2, you have enough density to have good STL below 20 Hz. So, one wall can be 24" thick foundation concrete and the other heavy brick with a cement render.. I doubt that you will have LF asymmetries.

if we were to orient the room length wise, we might be able to get a little more volume, also with the lengths and widths not so close to each other.
this is still bugging me though, the LF asymmetries. i dont mind constructing a brick wall in front of the concrete wall with a little gap inbetween to replicate the opposite wall, but still that air gap isn't the same as opening to the outside, is it? i still find it terrifying to try and have a bigger room and later have LF asymmetries.
i promise i wont bring it up again if you could please reassure that it wont one more time. sorry.
i think deciding which side to orient the CR is the first step i should take.

i have this idea: tell me if it is ridiculous. since reflections are the main causes for us not being able to hear accurately, why not put a wooden window(would this reflect less than a brick wall?) in the front wall behind the speakers reflection spot? and also a wooden door on the opposite spot on the rear wall. and maybe use absorbers on stands in front of the window and door when ever we are working? also are doors and windows on side walls a absolute no??
if i were to orient the room length wise, i have two options to achive max volume: one is using golden ratio: 1:1.62:2.62 (8.2:13.28:21.48)' = 2339 cu.ft
the other is 2.7:5.3:7.0 (8.2:15.9:21)' = 2737 cu.ft

the width of the second ratio is almost double the height, but would that extra volume help in the modal distribution??
please help me decide.

What monitors are you planning to buy?

i am looking at the yamaha's hs50(5"). would they work well in my room?
also if i were to upgrade to 8" later on would my room be able to support them??

You are doing great! Keeping asking questions.

thank you

 

[jhbrandt]

Nomad,

When I speak of fiberglass for this purpose (ceiling treatment) I mean the stuff that comes in rolls. Rock wool does not roll well. It is made just like fiberglass but from basalt rather than sand. It is crumbly and not so flexible. IF you can get rock wool for the ceiling treatment, I do not recommend a density higher than 20kg/m3 or gas flow resitivity greater than 8000 rayls/m. - 5600 rayls/m is ideal.
Membrane traps should be positioned strategically on the walls only. These are used for trapping below 100 Hz.
I was asking about the entry/exit points for the rooms. I had assumed, probaby incorrectly, that the only entrance is at the far end away from the beam and that all the side walls were solid concrete or brick. Please post a drawing with the doors.
Volume is ALWAYS best.. as long as you can get in and out.
Brick or concrete construction = NO low frequency symmetry problems. Don't worry about it. This is the very least of your problems.
HS50s - of course! Use a sub! but roll it off gently just before the pressure zone threshold for the tightest sounding room.

Cheers,
John

 

[mjbphotos]

I can't remember reading about ceiling clouds too much here (if there is a thread on them, someone can point it out to me).

I'll be building my bass traps later this month. My ceiling is a 2'x2' drop style. I could add fibreglass insulation above it, or make a framed trap to hang from the drop ceiling.

 

[nomadbyfate]

please have a look at this:

the door could go on either of the two walls marked by the black arrows.
and i am hoping to maybe place a window on the wall marked by the white arrow, thats the direction the sun comes up in the morning.
would it work?
thank you

 

[jhbrandt]

Can you get into the Jam room through the side wall as well??
If you loose the door at the rear of the CR, you could have a window in the front.
cheers,
John

 

[nomadbyfate]

yes, entering into the jam room isn't really a problem.
okay so the door on side wall of CR, where exactly plz?
and window, of glass or wood?? how big could it be?

also would facing towards east help minimize reflections due to the beam??
or would it be better to face the other way?
that wall seperating the CR and jam room is going to be two layers of brick for sound proofing the jam room.
is it better to have thinner wall as rear wall??

sorry for all the questions, you must be getting tired of me.

 

[jhbrandt]

yes, entering into the jam room isn't really a problem.
okay so the door on side wall of CR, where exactly plz?

The position of the door depends on the position of the operator & treatment options.

and window, of glass or wood?? how big could it be?

You can't see through a window that is made from wood. Yes, use laminated glass.

also would facing towards east help minimize reflections due to the beam??
or would it be better to face the other way?

I really don't know until you figure out the exact dimensions of the finished room. Then you can deal with that. It's not a big problem.

that wall seperating the CR and jam room is going to be two layers of brick for sound proofing the jam room.
is it better to have thinner wall as rear wall??

Why? are you going to do two layers of brick there? You have to do two layers of brick completely around the jam room to have any effect... AND you'd have to isolate the ceiling as well. What do you hope to gain?
As I said before, You will probably have over 55 dB isolation with the walls as they are. You don't have enough room to decouple the ceiling so doubling walls will only eat a hole in your wallet and leave you hungry.

I post answers to questions here to help educate and do a bit of myth-busting. But I can't design your studio for you for free. I enjoy this, but it wouldn't be fair to my paying clients.
You have to figure out what you want to do, what size you want the CR, etc. I can answer general questions to point you in the right direction. But if you really want to do this right and spend less money on mistakes, you should hire a pro to help you.

I'm not tired of you. You are doing great. I hope you are learning along the way. Let me recommend a good book from a friend of mine, Rod Gervais: Home Recording Studio: Build It Like the Pros: Rod Gervais: 9781435457171: Amazon.com: Books
I also have a recommended reading list on my publications page.

Cheers,
John

 

[nomadbyfate]

i completely understand what you are saying, and think its commendable what you are doing.

hey i understand modes a lot, okay maybe not a lot but a little better than when i first read about them. i still have a long way to go.
i really can't afford to hire a pro.

i've heard of Rod Gervias, i look it up.
once again thank you Sir
-Nomad

 

[jhbrandt]

i completely understand what you are saying, and think its commendable what you are doing.

hey i understand modes a lot, okay maybe not a lot but a little better than when i first read about them. i still have a long way to go.
i really can't afford to hire a pro.

i've heard of Rod Gervias, i look it up.
once again thank you Sir
-Nomad

Good deal! Study hard, work hard.. you can accomplish what you desire with perseverance. Stick to facts and check your options based on testing data.
- Read Rod's book a couple of times..
Cheers,
John

 

[chronicle]

Holy mother of what I thought this forum was supposed to do! It's happening. John...I am astounded beyond words...Now I understand JHBrandt...as much as I understand Bireli of course...


Biréli Lagrène (Live In Montreux 1981) {JohnFloyd} - YouTube



Gipsy project // Bireli Lagrene // - YouTube

 

[jhbrandt]

Off subject.. yeah.. but

Gipsy project // Bireli Lagrene // - YouTube

HOLY COW! Amazing.

Cheers,
John

 

[chronicle]

HOLY COW! Amazing.

My point exactly. YOU.

 

[chronicle]

At the risk of wasting my time, the wrath of experts notwithstanding, I have no clients, and I have the time. Hence, let's get this ball rolling.

After all, what have I got to loose.

btw, these are preliminary design studies. That is all. But there is a ton more. Lots to consider. In the meantime..let's play. oh, forgive the size. My editing program is broken at the moment.