Stephen Paul's tunes

[ozraves]

littledog,

you dont see many professionals swearing by the C1.

THe reason I as a homereccer was excited about it is because there was an EXCELLENT, I mean, Fabulous marketing campaign associated with it.

I dont have the chance to test out mics, so to take a $250 gamble on a mic which pros proclaimed as virtually identical to a u87 seemed a no-lose situation. I am sure many other homereccers felt the same way.

The first quote of the week at Mojo Pie :

Oct. 27, 2002: A Studio Projects C1 is not a Neumann U87
"I have two C1s. They sound NOTHING like a U87. They don't have the low mid bump, they have a more scooped midrange, and they have a shimmer thing going on in the high end. They are fine mics, but when I hear people say they sound like an 87 I quickly note to myself NEVER to work with them because their ears simply cannot work after making such an absurd comment." -- LS

 

[DJL]

<snip>

I dont have the chance to test out mics, so to take a $250 gamble on a mic which pros proclaimed as virtually identical to a u87 seemed a no-lose situation. I am sure many other homereccers felt the same way.

The Studio Projects C1 mic doesn't sound like a U87, and the pros who say that the C1 sounds like a U87 are either lying or deaf.

 

[CyanJaguar]

The Studio Projects C1 mic doesn't sound like a U87, and the pros who think the C1 sounds like a U87 are either lying or deaf.

or were given some incentive to put that out there.

Do you know how powerful the opinion of a trusted "pro" is?
People ran out and spent $6000 on the sony because a pro (his name escapes me) said that it was like connected to the throat. Of course they ranted and raved about it for a good while, until the reality of a $6000 expense hit them, especially since they could not hear a $6000 difference in the quality. Now they are admitting it has its moments when it just shines (duh, every mic has a moment when it shines) and that its usually just too bright.

I am willing to bet that this is the same hype that will surround the SPA mic when it comes out. I hope it would be a GREAT mic, but not if they are using the substandard components found in today's crop of chinese mics. However, even if it turns out to be an average mic for the asking price, people like Recording Engineer and Zekeman will be gushing up and down that the SPA mic is the existence and conclusion of all microphones. Of course, its because of this that I am also willing to bet that the mic will cost at least $1800 probably $2000.

Then some poor soul who just blew his 2 grand on a mic will be sitting alone in his poor studio wondering why his recordings are not coming out all polished and perfect like the numerous obsequious reviews promised.

 

[chessrock]

Hey Littledog,

What makes the C1 such a great mic is the same thing that makes the Mackie VLZ Pro such an outstanding mic pre . . .

Marketing.

It's the same fuel that's behind why the new Stephen Paul mics are going to put the Germans out of business . . . before anyone's even heard a single beta test.

And it's merely a fleeting guess, again pleading ignorance to the matter, that there's a lot of the same juice behind what makes SP the audio legend / god that he (supposedly) is.

And before you put any more words in my mouth for me, why don't you go back and quote my exact words where I belittled St. Stephen's accomplishments. While you're at it, why don't go and dig up where Cyan said the C1 was "a notch below" the C3000B.

I don't know if it's eroneous assumptions or good old-fashion delusion, but somehow you've managed to read an awful lot in to what people don't actually even say. Why don't you try reading people's post for a change. You may find it enlightening.

 

[DJL]

or were given some incentive to put that out there.

<snip>

And that would fall in the lying category.

 

[littledog]

I am not going to come in and praise the c3000b but I am willing to bet that you are one of those who thinks that the SP c1 is the s^%$tuff, and since you do, I am not going to tell you how the C1 sounds compared to the c3000b which you so happily berate.

So you tell me, Chessrock, oh mighty final arbitor of how to interpret posts... where did I go wrong in interpreting Cyanjaguar's implication?

and i guess "supposed genius" could be interpreted as a compliment - at least compared to "supposed idiot"...

i could go through your posts point by point and recap what everyone else is already bored to tears discussing, but as i said, i refuse to be drawn into any argument based on factual or logical merit. there are enough other folks around here who are still desperately trying to follow such outmoded values (Zeke, Rec. Eng., etc. ) I prefer to follow the new hipper trend of misquoting, ignoring facts and/or history, and tap-dancing around compelling arguments with sophomoric humor. Throwing in a few references to "man love" , for example, never fails to derail a serious discussion.

Remember, Chessrock, you can't win, because you are emotionally invested. And a hater.

How'm I doing, coach? Am I getting the hang of this yet?

(Oh, yeah... I almost forgot.... when in doubt, throw in some smiley faces!)

 

[chessrock]

Littledog, I never thought I'd find myself squaring off with you, because I include you in a very select handful of people around here who's opinions and statements I hold in the very highest regard. And that's saying a lot.

That's why I think it's even more important than ever to kindly inform you that you are above some of the way-out things you've been posting lately. I'm really disappointed in you, LD, I really am. I thought of all people, you would be the voice of reason in all of this, but when all is said and done, you're kind of acting like Zeke, which is frankly beneath you.

If I say something like "suposed accomplishments," I mean that the guy supposedly has accomplishments. Just because I'm ignorant to them doesn't mean they don't exist . . . and just because I might question them or approach them with scepticism does not translate to "instantly discrediting them."

Although I'm sure they might to someone who's very sensitive and defensive to the issue.

Similarly, I'm not reading the same things in Cyan's remarks -- All I'm guessing is that he doesn't see a large gap in quality between the two products in question. Still don't see where he makes a "this is a notch lower" or "this is better than that" statement anywhere.

Frankly, LD, you're ranting and raving like an emotional windbag. Like a little sissy. Quit acting like this, LD, you're above it.

 

[littledog]

But seriously folks:

Some interesting points raised by a lot of people. Clearly none of us (unless we are one of the few who have access to the prototype) can make a definitive judgement on ANY product that has not been released.

I think it is a natural tendency, however, to have an eager anticipation when someone with an excellent track record who has no history or apparent inclination to produce crappy products (or sell out their integrity for financial gain) announces a major release.

I think of it as analagous to the RNC. At first, no one was inclined to believe that any compressor at that price point could be as good as the hype. If anything, it turned out to be better. So when the RNP was in the works, naturally a lot of folks started a buzz about it. This was greatly annoying to some others, who refused to be interested in gushing about vaporware. Now, both sides had a point... neither was right or wrong. Sometimes it IS reasonable to get excited about a potential product, based on the history of the developer. Yet, in the end, we can't make final judgements until we have hands on experience. (By the way, I've not used the RNP, so I have no idea if it lived up to its advance hype or not, which would be tangential to my point anyway...)

No one is infallible, so it is entirely possible that those who are predicting mediocrity or failure Stephen's new mic could be right. But I wonder how many of those same folks know him at all? Remember, for good or bad, the man has a towering sense of pride in his work, and has always seemed more concerned about his place in history than his own financial comfort. The tangible excitement which he has over his new mic is not consistent with mediocrity. If you've had any interaction with Stephen, you know he wears his heart on his sleeve. If the mic was a dud, or even ordinary, believe me, you'd be hearing him wailing, gnashing his teeth, and declaring war on the chinese factories for "ruining" his design... but so far, no sign of that.

If Ted Williams had wanted to give me a tip on hitting, or if Mike Tyson wanted to show me a flaw in my fighting style... I may not have to like anything about their personalities, but I think I'd be a fool not to at least listen to what they have to say. We live in an imperfect world filled with imperfect personalities (present company excepted, of course!) It is our own loss if we choose to judge someone's work based on our evaluation of their social skills, or simply because we have chosen a contrarian lifestyle.

Seems like the main criticism of Stephen is his lack of tact, which is another way of saying brutal honesty. So if someone is "brutally honest" as well as being one of the top living experts in the field of microphone design (can we at least all agree on that?) tells me I might want to start saving my pennies for a new and special product, my first inclination is not to accuse him of spreading false hype.

Others, of course, may disagree... (And I'm sure they will...)

Now, back to your regulalry scheduled programming....

 

[littledog]

....you're kind of acting like Zeke...

...Similarly, I'm not reading the same things in Cyan's remarks -- All I'm guessing is that he doesn't see a large gap in quality between the two products in question. Still don't see where he makes a "this is a notch lower" or "this is better than that" statement anywhere.

Frankly, LD, you're ranting and raving like an emotional windbag. Like a little sissy. Quit acting like this, LD, you're above it.

Ah, now, this is more like it. Talking about raising the bar!

Thanks for the compliment about Zeke. Actually, I gave up trying to be like Zeke, since he does it so much better - clear clever writing filled with salient points. I just can't measure up.

So instead I started acting like Chessrock - a more attainable goal. Given your last post, it seems like i must be doing a good job!

As far as Cyan goes, it's interesting that while you objected to my interpretation of his remarks, he didn't. And I've never known him to be shy.

Anyway, I thank you for your latest lesson in posting etiquette. Clearly i completely forgot about juvenile name calling, which shows just how much i have to learn.

So in the interest of personal growth, and totally in the spirit and maturity level of the current context, I submit to you the following responses of which you may select your favorite and respond in kind:

•I know you are but what am I?
•I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.
•Your mother wears army boots.

Naturally, I will humbly accept style critiques from the master....

much love,
the ranting raving emotional windbag and sissy

oopos, i forgot to mention "man love" in this post. Do i lose points?

 

[MrZekeMan]

I'm in and back out the door, but I wanted to quickly give my applause to littledog for summing it neatly up into a nutshell.

Taylor

 

[DJL]

This show keeps getting better and better. Now, I need a beer to wash down the popcorn.

 

[CyanJaguar]

But seriously folks:

Some interesting points raised by a lot of people. Clearly none of us (unless we are one of the few who have access to the prototype) can make a definitive judgement on ANY product that has not been released.

I think it is a natural tendency, however, to have an eager anticipation when someone with an excellent track record who has no history or apparent inclination to produce crappy products (or sell out their integrity for financial gain) announces a major release.

I think of it as analagous to the RNC. At first, no one was inclined to believe that any compressor at that price point could be as good as the hype. If anything, it turned out to be better. So when the RNP was in the works, naturally a lot of folks started a buzz about it. This was greatly annoying to some others, who refused to be interested in gushing about vaporware. Now, both sides had a point... neither was right or wrong. Sometimes it IS reasonable to get excited about a potential product, based on the history of the developer. Yet, in the end, we can't make final judgements until we have hands on experience. (By the way, I've not used the RNP, so I have no idea if it lived up to its advance hype or not, which would be tangential to my point anyway...)

No one is infallible, so it is entirely possible that those who are predicting mediocrity or failure Stephen's new mic could be right. But I wonder how many of those same folks know him at all? Remember, for good or bad, the man has a towering sense of pride in his work, and has always seemed more concerned about his place in history than his own financial comfort. The tangible excitement which he has over his new mic is not consistent with mediocrity. If you've had any interaction with Stephen, you know he wears his heart on his sleeve. If the mic was a dud, or even ordinary, believe me, you'd be hearing him wailing, gnashing his teeth, and declaring war on the chinese factories for "ruining" his design... but so far, no sign of that.

If Ted Williams had wanted to give me a tip on hitting, or if Mike Tyson wanted to show me a flaw in my fighting style... I may not have to like anything about their personalities, but I think I'd be a fool not to at least listen to what they have to say. We live in an imperfect world filled with imperfect personalities (present company excepted, of course!) It is our own loss if we choose to judge someone's work based on our evaluation of their social skills, or simply because we have chosen a contrarian lifestyle.

Seems like the main criticism of Stephen is his lack of tact, which is another way of saying brutal honesty. So if someone is "brutally honest" as well as being one of the top living experts in the field of microphone design (can we at least all agree on that?) tells me I might want to start saving my pennies for a new and special product, my first inclination is not to accuse him of spreading false hype.

Others, of course, may disagree... (And I'm sure they will...)

Now, back to your regulalry scheduled programming....

very concise and articulate post. You also looked at a lot of the angles. THis is the littledog that I am accustomed to.

I want to say though that the profit motive is very compelling. Macchiavelli said a man will forget the loss of his father faster than he forgets the loss of property. In the same vein, a man will, and many men have put aside pride of work for profit.

What I am concerned about is : If SPA wanted the best mic regardless of profit margin, why would they source components and manpower from CHINA? especially since the worst mics seem to come from CHINA?

If he was doing it for pride and glory, he would source parts from the best of the best, not the worst of the worst. He would source the manpower and assembly from the best of the best, not the worst of the worst. Who cares if the mic ends up costing $5000. WHo cares if it ends up costing $10,000? Its SPA and its worth it. Going to china looks to me ( and correct me if I am wrong) that they are trying to get the lowest cost possible, put some SPA modifications on it, put the SPA name on it, and make a killing.

And, nobody should have this wrong. When one buys the SPA mic, they wont be paying for a mic, they will be paying for the brand name.

 

[littledog]

Cyan,

Thanks for providing me with the opportunity to answer a question that I realize now is not self-evident, seeing as how you have raised it.

If Stephen wanted to make a "money is no object" microphone, he wouldn't have to do anything at all. He already does that. Send him your microphone (whatever it may be) and he will gladly take a large portion of your life savings and turn it into one of the best in the world.

That's not the point here. Stephen mused at length about the possibility of someday making an AFFORDABLE mic . In one of his musings, he wondered if it were at all realistic or possible to meet his extreme quality control and manufacturing specification standards using an existing Chinese manufacturing facility. Many of us BEGGED him to seriously explore the possibility (myself included), and eventually Harvey hooked him up with Alan Hyatt and soon he began to think of his "affordable" fantasy as a distinct possibility.

So, Cyan, Stephen is not trying to guarantee his legacy by making a microphone that only 100 people in the world could afford. But he is making a mic that almost any of us can afford, allegedly with a quality of sound that previously required spending 3-4x that amount.

In my selfish eyes, that's a far greater contribution (to me at least) than coming out with another $16,000 ELAM or it's equivalent. I would be the first to agree that even for $1200, no one should necessarily rush out and buy one blindly. But if the reviews, word of mouth, and personal testing experiences bear out the claims - we ALL benefit hugely. Even those around here who think he is a jerk.

 

[chessrock]

Clearly none of us (unless we are one of the few who have access to the prototype) can make a definitive judgement on ANY product that has not been released.

That hasn't stopped you so far.

I think it is a natural tendency, however, to have an eager anticipation when someone with an excellent track record who has no history or apparent inclination to produce crappy products (or sell out their integrity for financial gain) announces a major release.

I agree. I was pretty stoked over the new Star Wars movies myself. Too bad they sucked.

No one is infallible, so it is entirely possible that those who are predicting mediocrity or failure Stephen's new mic could be right.

I din't know there were such people. To my knowlege, there seems to be a much clearer divide between 1) those who have already predicted success, and 2) those who actually need to hear it first. I guess those are the ones who you consider to be "predicting mediocrity." Interesting logic.

That must mean that if I actually have to see a movie first to judge whether I like it or not . . . then I must think it's going to suck, right? The world according to Littledog.

But I wonder how many of those same folks know him at all?

I didn't realize this was relevant. Say, next time I sit down to eat a cake, I'm going to have to give Sara Lee a call. See if I can get a line on her personal integrity. Maybe it'll make her cakes taste better.

Remember, for good or bad, the man has a towering sense of pride in his work, and has always seemed more concerned about his place in history than his own financial comfort.

You're a damn fine ass kisser, LD

The tangible excitement which he has over his new mic is not consistent with mediocrity. If you've had any interaction with Stephen, you know he wears his heart on his sleeve. If the mic was a dud, or even ordinary, believe me, you'd be hearing him wailing, gnashing his teeth, and declaring war on the chinese factories for "ruining" his design... but so far, no sign of that.

You're starting to lose me here. Still some good ass-kissing, though.

We live in an imperfect world filled with imperfect personalities (present company excepted, of course!) It is our own loss if we choose to judge someone's work based on our evaluation of their social skills . . .

I agree. But I also think it's an even greater travesty of justice to allow people's accomplishments to hold them unaccountable for their behavior. You mentioned Mike Tyson earlier, and I think that's a very good example. Another I'd like to add would be Bobby Knight.

You can't separate the person's behavior from the person. Unfortunately, SP does not work in a field where personal accomplishments are as black&white and tangible as batting averages and number of victories.

Therefore, a lot of us choose to wait for the game to actually be played before we declare a victor in this particular case.

You seem to have a problem with that thinking -- which I find rather puzzling.

So if someone . . . tells me I might want to start saving my pennies for a new and special product, my first inclination is not to accuse him of spreading false hype.

No, your first tendency is to sing it's praises without even having experience with it . . . followed by your tendency to predict the downfall of all competitors . . . then kiss a little ass, then jump all over anyone and everyone who (God forbid) has to hear it first before they judge -- or who just doesn't like the product's creator personally.

Let's see . . . next order of business is to accuse people who don't kiss that expert's ass of ignoring his accomplishments. Lastly, there's that nasty tendency to accuse those same people of "predicting mediocrity," when in fact no one's predicted anything.

Oh, and I forgot the part about acting like an emotional windbag on behalf of the creator of said product and reducing oneself to a ranting fool.

To quote you:

Others, of course, may disagree... (And I'm sure they will...) Back to our regularly scheduled programming . . .

Can someone hand me the remote?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Going to china looks to me ( and correct me if I am wrong) that they are trying to get the lowest cost possible, put some SPA modifications on it, put the SPA name on it, and make a killing.

Consider yourself corrected - you're very wrong.

 

[littledog]

well, CR, seems strange that you would think that personal knowledge of the character and integrity of a product developer would be completely irrelevent in judging the likelihood of being ripped off by them or in predicting the success of their endeavors. If you did know, for instance, from personal experience that the head chef at Sara Lee took enormous personal pride in her creations, and spent years of research before agreeing to release a new product, AND you loved all the previous Sara Lee products, wouldn't that make you more favorably predisposed to a new dessert release, even before trying it? That's not to say that it's guaranteed you will like it, but just that probability is increased. I don't think that's in any way intellectually or morally dishonest.

from your arguments, i am assuming you will dispense with or dispose of any products, music, artwork, literature, etc. that you happen to use or own that was produced by someone who's personality or ethics you find to be questionable. If a book comes out tomorrow proving the Wright Brothers were rabid racists, can we assume you will never fly again?

as for the issues about other mic manufacturers, I think that if the process has already started. Do you remember what a 414 used to cost? Or any other "cheap" large diaphragm condenser. Remember when the TLM 103 was released at $1000 street price? Remember how much you used to have to pay for a U87? Remember when your cost for an M149 was at least $4000? Competition often works to the benefit of the consumer, and it will in this case. Already microphone prices have dropped enormously. Just like in the rest of the world, the injection of newer cheaper technology often results in many of the original companies falling by the wayside. Are you so sure it COULDN'T happen with microphone companies? Ask yourself how many of the automobile manufacturers from the first half of the 20th Century are still in business? The original developers of a technology are not always the ones that survive over time.

Regardless of whether any individual likes or dislikes Stephen Paul's new mic, or those like Chessrock who will refuse to use it because Stephen was mean to him... we still all benefit. Maybe Chessrock will want to buy a U-87 or a BLUE Bottle or a Soundeluxe U95... chances are, if Stephen's mic does what he claims, the result will be cheaper prices across the board from all manufacturers as everyone tries to remain competetive.

And think of the possibilites! If Stephen's manufacturing experiment DOES work out, why wouldn't he move on to other similar projects - like a small diaphragm condenser, for example.

But hey, what do i know. I'm just a raving emotional ass-kissing sissy. Just ask Chessrock! The question is, am I a QUALITY raving emotional ass-kissing sissy? You see, I like to be good at whatever it is that i do....

 

[littledog]

Going to china looks to me ( and correct me if I am wrong) that they are trying to get the lowest cost possible, put some SPA modifications on it, put the SPA name on it, and make a killing.

Actually, until Harvey picked up on that point, I missed that part of your post.

It is my understanding that the mic is an original design in the truest sense of the word. Even minor components and parts have been uniquely designed for optimum results. The implication is there will be design approaches and components never before seen in a mic in this price range. So it is hardly a minor (or even major) modification of an existing mic, or worse, a rebadging.

My information in this matter comes from Stephen's own very interesting and persuasive communications. Obviously, those of you who are convinced that he is merely a sociopathic liar trying to rip us all off will probably remain unconvinced until you see the mic for yourself.

That's cool.

 

[chessrock]

If you did know, for instance, from personal experience that the head chef at Sara Lee took enormous personal pride in her creations, and spent years of research before agreeing to release a new product, AND you loved all the previous Sara Lee products . . .

. . . all of which is totally irrelevant if her cake sucks, mind you . . .

wouldn't that make you more favorably predisposed to a new dessert release, even before trying it?

I'd still have to try the damn cake. If I tried it and it was good, then it's good. If the damn thing tastes like ear wax, it tastes like earwax. Maybe my earwax tastes good to some people.

from your arguments, i am assuming you will dispense with or dispose of any products, music, artwork, literature, etc. that you happen to use or own that was produced by someone who's personality or ethics you find to be questionable.

If it's junk, I'll get rid of it. If it's good, I'll keep it. If I own it, then chances are very high that I've gotten a chance to try it out, and have already made that determination ahead of time. Very little chance I bought it on reputation alone -- although I'll admit I've bought a few John Irving novels based on my fondness for his past work . . . but I certainly waited untill after I read it before I made the determination of whether or not it was a good purchase. You still don't get that concept, do you? Are you slow?

If a book comes out tomorrow proving the Wright Brothers were rabid racists, can we assume you will never fly again?

If the first airplane were invented tomorrow, would you volunteer for the first test flight, just because of what you know of the Wright brother's past accomplishments?

Are you so sure it COULDN'T happen with microphone companies?

Of course it could. But I think a good first step might be to actually release a microphone to the buying public. If you were the president / CEO of Neumann, would you close shop right now and admit defeat?

I'm probably asking the wrong person. I'd probably wait a bit and see how things play out first, but that's just me.

Regardless of whether any individual likes or dislikes Stephen Paul's new mic, or those like Chessrock who will refuse to use it because Stephen was mean to him... we still all benefit.

I will refuse to use ONLY it if I hear it and think it sounds like ass. Never said anything about refusing to buy it because someone was mean. That's straight from the Littledog delusion factory.

So SP basically insults our entire board and calls us all a big waste of human life in not so many words. Call me stupid for wanting to hear his mics before I buy them, or before I sell my Senheiser stock. Hell, I'd do the same thing even if SP and I were drinking buddies.

And think of the possibilites! If Stephen's manufacturing experiment DOES work out, why wouldn't he move on to other similar projects - like a small diaphragm condenser, for example.

Why stop there. I could use an affordable toaster oven or a Palm Pilot, too.

But hey, what do i know. I'm just a raving emotional ass-kissing sissy. Just ask Chessrock!

On this particular thread, yes you are exhibiting the characteristics you mention. But just as you apologize for SP's behavior based on past experience, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt based on mine with you. Most of the time you're pretty damn helpful and smart.

I just think you've gone temporarily insane, or maybe someone spiked your drinking water with "asskissing sissy pills."

 

[ozraves]

hey, what happened? this thread got interesting again.

on some recent posts... i really don't think greed is too much a part of the package here. i think it's about having a legacy.

 

[Treeline]

You guys sure have a lot of fun doing this.

Ah, well, it's Friday night. Time to go out and cause some trouble.