STANDARD/BASIC signal chain

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bunnygirl

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ok guys! another little question from the bunny girl

EQUIPMENT LIST:
-wierd but still intriguing Zoom MRS 1410 8/10 track
-noisy TUBE MP STUDIO
-soon to arrive RNC
-soon to be purchased Mackie 1202VLZ PRO (for $330 at samash! not bad huh?)
-eventual VC6Q for yet another pre-amp/compression option (still mulling on this purchase/try-out)
-the infamous C1
-a couple of 57's and one 58

You may now turn your papers over and pick up your pencils.

1) To record clean, somewhat warm vocals off the C1 what would the basic signal chain? does the RNC come before tracking or after or both if desired is possible, correct?
(C1 to mackie to rnc to multi-track?)

2) To get a clean stereo recording of my a/e martin 16gte guitar.... what would be the basic signal chain?
(57's to...?)

3) How come gear lust is never-ending... is there any point of satisfaction?????? I'm itching for a Taylor 414 CE KOA sides and back.. doesn't that sound delicious...

(BONUS QUESTION: what do you think of tracking clean to a $400 Fostex analog 4-track and bouncing those tracks to the MRS 1410 and using the MRS to add verb and basic mixdown? will that introduce any interesting characteristic to the tracks or just unwanted noise and bad qual? I'm sure I'll have to try to see, but just wondering if anyone has done anything similar.)

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!!!!

*still getting good verb in the bunny cage, thanks to the winter-time insulation*
 
Wabbit,

Compression when tracking, if used judiciously, will even out the dynamics, (on vocals it can help compensate for bad mic technique). Personally, on my limited records so far, I use as little as possible of anything.

Same thing can apply to the guitar. Here, I am in the habit of micing with a C1 AND also using a direct line from the guitar into a second channel..........blending as desired later.

Gear/guitar lust is never ending, even with I think 12 guitars between my son and I. I'm giving the recording gear more priority at the moment.:D

These are just my thoughts based on minimal experience.

ChrisO :cool:
 
I disagree... someone just starting out with compression shouldn't use it during tracking -- too easy to mess it up, which can't be undone later...........

OTOH - I'm pretty minimalist on my tracking signal chain, so for me it's mic --> mic pre --> recorder.... monitor thru the console.

No EQ, no comp, no processing of any kind unless it's an integral part of the track.

Mic selection and placement go along way to capturing the right sound, without having to reach for the EQ knob or some processor.

Bruce


On an aside, I wonder if bunnies are more lucrative than ducks? Hmmmmmmmmmm.... maybe change my whole side-business structure.... seems I'd have less stock problems with bunnies, since they're fast-replicating!

Anyone wanna buy a duck?? No? How about a bunny?


:D :D
 
I do the same while tracking but i do prefer some compression on the bass guitar and the bass drumm.
 
Bruce,

do u know how hard it is for a newbie to get a signal that:
A) is hot enough
B) doesnt clip

get the compressor and learn to use it with mild settings......
 
Easter is coming ---Yo BunnyGirl:

I definitely agree with Bruce as to SIMPLICITY of signal chain.

Now that I'm using my DAW Yam 2816, it's pretty simple to plug in the cord and record. [I kind of like that phrase.]

Alas, though, I look at all of my little black boxes attached to my MD8 and am sad. For the most part, they are not needed with the Yam. But, I'll still use them to do short fun stuff on the MD8.

But, the 2816's sound is VERY good.

So, to depart from my infocommercial, simplicity is GOOD. Too bad Yamaha didn't hire Bruce and a couple other members here to write the manual.

I hope a Yamaha VP reads this.

Happy St. Patrick's day

Green Hornet
 
Bunny,for a little different sound(more clean)you could skip the Art MP altogether and use the pres on the VLZ Pro.Ive heard good things about the pres in that mixer and I woudnt be surprised if they sound much better than the Art.Try running the C-1 into a channel on the Mackie and then running a line out of the insert jack on that channel to a channel input on your multitrack.For stereo recording with the SM57's just go from both channel inserts to two tracks of the Zoom.You can monitor out of your recorder.You could try using the Art but I think you would get much more noise.Some people do like that preamp but I have one and Im not one of them.Best would be to try it both ways and let your ears be the judge.Let us know which way you like.
 
Oh about taping to the Fostex and back if that is a cassette recorder Id skip it.I think it would just add noise.Just stay digital.
 
Gidge said:
Bruce,

do u know how hard it is for a newbie to get a signal that:
A) is hot enough
B) doesnt clip
Click to expand...
Back in my 4-track days (years ago!), I didn't have a lot of trouble getting a good hot signal that didn't clip - and I never tracked with a compressor ('cos I didn't have one!)........

Bruce
 
I agree with the Blue Bear guy. I am new to recording on my own and have tried using compression while tracking though I am not profficient in its use yet. the result was a bad sound that I was stuck with even though the playing on the track was very good and hard to duplicate.It was a piano solo that had just the right feel but will nevertheless, be hard to use becuase I compressed it improperly and got a thin, weak sound. So, I have decided since then to leave the sounds in theri original from when tracking and mess with it later until I am absolutely sure what I am doing.
 
AHA Bruce:

"Your old 4 track days...."

Drape pants aren't much older than 4 tracks.
Heh Heh Heh....


Green Hornet
 
she has a RNC....theres no reason NOT to insert that baby into the chain.....

Bruce shame on you, you know analog and digital are 2 different animals...if you got a little hot with a vocal on a 4 track, no biggie....on digital, one little spike and a whole track is garbage....and Dog forbid if it was the take to end all takes where sunshine came into the studio and it was just magic.....
 
well
my 2-agree w/ Bruce etc side
record dry, I use the same mackie, great clean pre-amps
reason is you can add but you can't subtract; and post production is a lot easier than getting it absolutely right the first time, then having to rerecord if you change your mind. Makes it hard to compare different versions (levels and layers of effects) if that is the only option. Record dry and you can play with whatever you want afterwards.

no reason to go to tape, stay digital if you are there.

exception is instumentals, like say an electric guitar, where the effects are an integral part of the sound and tone, and the artist can't play if they can't hear the sound they are making (ie how do they imagine the sustain so they can use it? And heavy bass instuments, which also can be difficult to control, but I've seen it done enough. I use a limiter if I have to and that is it.

and personally, I think an artist should learn good technique instead of depend on electronics to do it for them... might as well have someone else play it for you who has put in the time and effort to practice... music is art and craft, I don't see the point in trying to deny the fact that it takes practice, sorry. And recording is an art as well, mike type and placement, etc.. I don't know, everyone wants it but doesn't want to work for it?

eg.. your guitar: try putting on the headphones, sit in front of the microphone w/ your guitar and move the guitar around and listen to all the various tones you get as the mike moves across the face of the quitar. You'll find several places and distances that give different tones, for use in different songs. Learn.

oh..You record a mono track and create stereo tracks from them, or stereo mixes, really. No need to record the guitar in stereo, though you could record different tones/mikes and mix them later.

Hmmm... I have no gear lust, they are tools, nothing more, so it can be avoided... I remember from my earliest days being told that its not the guitar, its the person playing it... and seeing it proved over and over. I focus on the music, and don't have time to think of gear. I get what I need (sort of a pain to be distracted) and get it over with and get back to the music. I learned the lesson of all gear long ago, when I bought my first VW for $500. It was where I was going that counted, and the fact was I did go, all over the place, while other people never went anywhere, too busy paying for their fancy car, and feeding some weird consumer brainwashing that measured their self-worth, and stoked their ego, with the amount and expense etc of their possessions. I left them behind waxing their new car while I went and saw the country in my cheap rustbucket. And I was saved from dealing with people who are impressed and judge you by the fanciness of your gear. Good enough is good enough, and its not what you got, its what you do with it.
and the sad truth is that as an artist, you are way more sensitive to incrimental differences than your audience is. I rememebr begging to stop so I could tune, and everyone yelling "no, it sounds great" while I was cringing at dissonances they didn't even notice.

but the fact is, we are creatures of habit and form them ourselves, like training a dog (hmmm, our desires do sort of sit in our "rat-brain" limbic node). If you teach your desire to focus on gear, it will, if you teach it to focus on something else, it will focus on that. I lust for some time to walk away or sail away from it all and get some peace and quiet, personally, or maybe some ice-cream, or time to sit somewhere with a piano or a guitar and lose it all in a song, or someone to sing along...

the beauty of DSP is also in the fact that it replaces a lot of the gear you used to need with analog, because you couldn't loop endlessly adding/trying effects (and noise), you had to try and get it the first time if you could, and you had to redline to saturate the tape... not so now. I find it easy to get a signal that is hot enough and doesn't clip, because I have a much greater range of what is "hot enough" for good recording. Its a hard shift when you grew up on tape ( my first machine was the same as the beatles "revolver" was recorded on) because it is totally different, apples to oranges, and to my mind, way more forgiving and easier, because you can record well at much lower levels. In digital, you shouldn't need to be red-lining at all in the normal course of things.

Another thing to note is that we still listen to and enjoy music recorded at way lower quality than you can easily achieve with the cheapest DSP systems. I was sitting w/ my lead player, listening to a great classic tune, and he suddenly said (to the effect) gosh, that lead is so simple, so easy, compared to modern stuff, and it's great...so great...

and really, its not so hard to learn good technique, any more then its that hard to learn to play an instrument (I didn't say it was easy, of course)and it will serve you better in the long run than gear. What will you do up on stage at a festival without all that gear? Sound terrible? Blame the soundperson for not having your same gear and knowing the exact settings you want on it during a 5 minute set-up window? Or never play live? Unless you are the headliner able to demand whatever gear you want and have a 5 hour soundcheck before the show? Or feel confident that no matter where you play, you can make it work with just a mike and an amp if you have to, or with nothing, and people will be satisfied and you'll have another chance to play... that's what its all about.



peace
folksinger
 
Also, I have a Rode NT1 and a dbx 376 Tube Channel. Now I cannot be completely sure since i am not experienced enough but...it did, at times, seem that putting the mic directly through the Mackie 24-8 might have been cleaner and therefore better overall sounding. More than likely, though, I need to work more with the channle strip to get the setting better and the level. But, this may be just the point. For persons starting out, as we learn, it is better to use less in the signal path becuase it is easier to control. As we gain contorl over the simpler signal path, we than then add things that make it more complex and have enough contorl and know how to make it work and to actually get benefit from more equipment rather than detriment.

Vty


Jeroleen
 
ok! GREAT ADVICE as always, thank you!
I will take the advice which seems to be the theme of the thread. I'll make it simple and learn how to do everything well simply and maybe add in small amounts here and there and experiment. I think it makes sense to slowly add compression or fx and hearing how that makes a difference and go from there. I think I'll skip the Joe Meek for now and just stick with the Mackie and the RNC (which is $17.99 for shipping!!!EGADS!) and work from there. I have fair mic technique and am aware of clipping signal but I do have lots of dynamics in my vocals so the RNC may come into play in the future... I'll be tracking for the next month, taking my time to learn, I'll let you know how it goes! Thanks much guys.-

Your One and Only Bunnygirl :)

*more than just another dumb bunny*
 
oh forgot to ask... gidge or anyone,
where does the RNC usually come in the signal chain?

Mic- to Mic Pre (mackie one channel out/aux out and return?)-RNC-Multitrack?

I'm sure I'll try different combinations, but what is the norm for compression, before the tracking or in mixdown?
thx
 
Gidge made a good point... throw that RNC in Super-Nice mode, 4:1 ratio, threshold at 0 or so, and you'd likely be pretty safe....


Bruce
 
the RNC goes in the effects loop of the Mackie (aux out to RNC - RNC to return)....the Mackie goes into the recorder.....

it is common to use as little effects,compression,etc. as possible during tracking because it leaves you more options during mixdown to add more (as stated earlier you cant undo it if you track it with too much).....but i always find that with really dynamic instruments some compression going in helps tame it down and get a decent signal.....

these guys warnings about tracking with compression isnt altogether wrong....it can be a BAD thing if done wrong...but like Bruce said, with the RNC in SuperNice mode, you cant go wrong....its very transparent and smooth....it wont do anything funky that youll regret.....

you have a pretty impressive gear list going...cant wait to hear an mp3......
 
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