Sooooooo tired of fake drum threads.

[fat_fleet]

I think programed drums can sound very good. The biggest weakness in sample drums is the cymbals. Ev en if I went to drum samples, which I may do before its over wirh, I would buy a set of hats, a good crash, and a good ride...with the appropriate stands and hardware. It just sounds better IMO

Personally, my preference for real drums in music has never been about the sound at all, but about the performance.. most of the music I like has that synergy between the instruments that's just tough to program, and tough to pull off without real people going for it in real time.

 

[fat_fleet]

Anyway, i'm no drummer but I'm doing drum tracks now. What I do is lay them down one drum at a time. First I do the bass drum with one LDC mic. Then I record the snare with a SM57 and an overhead. Then I record the hats and cymbles, with 2 overheads. Finally, I record the toms with 2 overheads. The results are pretty good IMO.

For example this is, to me, a form of programmed drums. (not that there's anything inherently "wrong" with it.)

 

[4tracker]

Lol, you're not as persecuted as it appears you'd like to think. At least 90% of the members here use some sort of sampled percussion.

Honestly I didn't have time to read the entire thread, so I was going off the tone in the first post and some comments on the first page.

Good to know. I mean I wish I could have real drums and agree they're the gold standard, but it's just not an option for many of us.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Programmed drums can sound very good now and human if done right.

They can't sound like a human drummer interacting with other musicians in real time. The emotional connection to music hasn't yet been reduced to a plugin.

 

[RFR]

In this current state of music, technology, and recording, programmed drums are a necessary evil. And I don't mince my words.

I've used them myself on occasion, but rally for live drums.

Somebody has to stick up for the heading towards extinction rare breed of mammals known as Musicians.

We are in a time where more and more people are doing music in isolation, with the only human interaction being message boards. That's a pathetic state of affairs. Really.

The days of getting a bunch of people into a room playing and interacting with each other seem to be mostly gone.

Keeping that alive is something worth fighting for.

Otherwise we lose our ability to actually be musicians and just turn into programers. Just like the kids who can text all day long, but don't know how to actually write if you give them a pen and paper.

 

[Greg_L]

That ^^^^^^^^^^

 

[beezelbubba]

In this current state of music, technology, and recording, programmed drums are a necessary evil. And I don't mince my words.

I've used them myself on occasion, but rally for live drums.

Somebody has to stick up for the heading towards extinction rare breed of mammals known as Musicians.

We are in a time where more and more people are doing music in isolation, with the only human interaction being message boards. That's a pathetic state of affairs. Really.

The days of getting a bunch of people into a room playing and interacting with each other seem to be mostly gone.

Keeping that alive is something worth fighting for.

Otherwise we lose our ability to actually be musicians and just turn into programers. Just like the kids who can text all day long, but don't know how to actually write if you give them a pen and paper.

I get that, and believe that live musicians, interacting in real time is one way of making art.
Another is one person, assigning sounds here, then there, according to his taste and vision, within the stereo field.The sounds may get there via mouse click, some sort of midi trigger device,a traditional instrument through a mic...whatever.I've been doing it the latter way for 25 years, because I've had no other means. I don't put it above or below any other method. It is what it is.
Having said that, I do admire people who are capable of mic'ing a drum set, or a whole band at once. For me, mics are something that you do the best you can with when it's time to record vocals!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

For a long time, at least tens of thousands of years, music has been a social activity. That's its purpose. The more it's composed, performed and even listened to in private the less purpose it has. I don't see much point in music that doesn't become part of some social interaction, preferably one where people meet in person. To me that means bands and live music, but even DJ events have more value that a great rock song built by one person with samples and sims and heard by a few scattered internet acquaintances.

The world is more full of humans than ever and getting fuller. It amazes me that any can't find nearby musical friends. I guess work and other aspects of life make it hard to find the time, but I still think it's easier than people realize.

 

[Tadpui]

I get that, and believe that live musicians, interacting in real time is one way of making art.
Another is one person, assigning sounds here, then there, according to his taste and vision, within the stereo field.The sounds may get there via mouse click, some sort of midi trigger device,a traditional instrument through a mic...whatever.I've been doing it the latter way for 25 years, because I've had no other means. I don't put it above or below any other method. It is what it is.
Having said that, I do admire people who are capable of mic'ing a drum set, or a whole band at once. For me, mics are something that you do the best you can with when it's time to record vocals!

This is exactly my line of thinking. I don't give a shit how the music is made. If I enjoy it, if it moves me in some way, then it's doing its job. So what if it's created in isolation? So what if it's only heard by a scattering of internet denizens? It was created by someone, and heard by someone else. That's a social connection.

 

[miroslav]

I agree that working with a bunch of musicians is always going to be an interactive experience that can lead to interesting results that may not be found when working alone. The whole "band" idea has always been dear to my heart...and I don't much like how these days so many band musicians are nothing more than band whores, and it's not about the music or about creativity...it's about getting a gig and a couple of $$.

I much more prefer having a band that sticks together, gels and turns into a more singular unit, greater than the sum of its parts...and where the idea of a "band" is one of solidarity.
Maybe that sounds corny...but that's the only kind of band I would want to be involved with.
That said...bands are not easy to form, not easy to gel and keep together, and often end up being more of a waste of time and a PITA, than serving as an inspirational creative unit that makes great music together.

Making music solo is not just "programming"...even for the guys who are mostly working ITB.
Before I got into digital, I use to kinda think that way...but having straddled both OTB/ITB ways of working, and using both analog/digital formats for the last 20 years now, I realize more and more that...
...if you focus too much on the gear and/or the processes that you use, you will always have some negative perspectives about people doing it differently than you.

Every aspect of a recording project done solo is still all about "making music".
That said...if you feel you need to use an upright bass instead of an electric one...or a real drum set instead of sample, or a guitar amp instead of a sim....than do that.
Considering that most of the guys here are using computers and recording solo, and/or having to assemble and mix tracks from solo takes in order to make their music...I find it odd that there are all these hard lines being drawn about what music really is and what its purpose really is.

I dunno...for me, the main purpose is to satisfy my own creative drive and recording interests, and to please myself when listening to it.

Anything more than that...is gravy.

YMMV......

 

[beezelbubba]

For a long time, at least tens of thousands of years, music has been a social activity. That's its purpose. The more it's composed, performed and even listened to in private the less purpose it has. I don't see much point in music that doesn't become part of some social interaction, preferably one where people meet in person. To me that means bands and live music, but even DJ events have more value that a great rock song built by one person with samples and sims and heard by a few scattered internet acquaintances.

The world is more full of humans than ever and getting fuller. It amazes me that any can't find nearby musical friends. I guess work and other aspects of life make it hard to find the time, but I still think it's easier than people realize.

Not sure what it says about me, but almost none of that is relevant to my attitude about making music.

 

[RFR]

Miro, those are valid points as well.

Talking about working in isolation, look at all the classical greats. Writing all the musical parts down on paper, only hearing it in ones head, and not being able to actually hear it till the composition was finished and an orchestra of competent musicians was assembled.

Yet great music was created.

 

[4tracker]

I agree that working with a bunch of musicians is always going to be an interactive experience that can lead to interesting results that may not be found when working alone. The whole "band" idea has always been dear to my heart...and I don't much like how these days so many band musicians are nothing more than band whores, and it's not about the music or about creativity...it's about getting a gig and a couple of $$.

I much more prefer having a band that sticks together, gels and turns into a more singular unit, greater than the sum of its parts...and where the idea of a "band" is one of solidarity.
Maybe that sounds corny...but that's the only kind of band I would want to be involved with.
That said...bands are not easy to form, not easy to gel and keep together, and often end up being more of a waste of time and a PITA, than serving as an inspirational creative unit that makes great music together.

Making music solo is not just "programming"...even for the guys who are mostly working ITB.
Before I got into digital, I use to kinda think that way...but having straddled both OTB/ITB ways of working, and using both analog/digital formats for the last 20 years now, I realize more and more that...
...if you focus too much on the gear and/or the processes that you use, you will always have some negative perspectives about people doing it differently than you.

Every aspect of a recording project done solo is still all about "making music".
That said...if you feel you need to use an upright bass instead of an electric one...or a real drum set instead of sample, or a guitar amp instead of a sim....than do that.
Considering that most of the guys here are using computers and recording solo, and/or having to assemble and mix tracks from solo takes in order to make their music...I find it odd that there are all these hard lines being drawn about what music really is and what its purpose really is.

I dunno...for me, the main purpose is to satisfy my own creative drive and recording interests, and to please myself when listening to it.

Anything more than that...is gravy.

YMMV......

Well said. Most music is made in isolation and only treated later.

I think what happens is someone has their influences growing up and never expands beyond that, so they think that's the best way to do it simply because they like it and it's familiar. I really think it's that simple. Because programmed drums can and do sound good, and they are on well-done underground/critically acclaimed cult albums (Think Beck, Lou Barlow, Some Devo demos, Kraftwerk, etc, and some other more mainstream artists recorded along to drum machines and then removed them). Ginger Baker recorded to a click track. Did anyone know this? Does it change your opinion of Cream? Are they somehow shitty now? The mentality is all artificial and an ethos by people who want to feel good about what THEY do at the expense of putting people down, rather than change themselves. It's easier to put someone else down than to look in the mirror and change yourself or open your mind.

I think someone should use what they have available and then out of those options use the one that sounds best. Sometimes it will be a compromise. I'd rather have real drums many times. But not always because it's really hard to find a (a) a good drummer with taste who (b) "gets" what you're trying to do, so in some ways programming is better. As the options to make it more human continue to grow it will only get better. It's like 90% there. Conversely, many times real drums are freaking awesome, too, especially as you get into Jazz and African beats and such -- things that can't easily be simulated. These can be mind blowing.

There are one man band, singer-songwriters, and all different genres who perform alone, so I can't comprehend where this idea comes from that you can't get a groove going or make anything worthwhile if you're alone other than one's own preference or insecurity, but it certainly is not fact. There are also recording artists who never play live or share their music. It itself doesn't make the music any more or less worthy.
It is sad people feel that way and really believe it. I can't believe they have enjoyable musical experiences when they're that hung up over minutia and always looking for what is wrong.

 

[beezelbubba]

Miro, those are valid points as well.

Talking about working in isolation, look at all the classical greats. Writing all the musical parts down on paper, only hearing it in ones head, and not being able to actually hear it till the composition was finished and an orchestra of competent musicians was assembled.

Yet great music was created.

Perfect analogy!

 

[RFR]

Yeah, I said something smart for a change, huh.

All the debates aside, music has been created since the beginning of humans.

The force is powerful. The methods for creating music have changed as technological advances have occurred.
I'm sure there were those who applauded the arrival of steel stinged instruments, while some balked and insisted on staying with cat gut strings.

The technology changes, the methods change. The desire to create music stays constant.

However, one of the things I am lamenting is the loss of community, the loss of real face to face interaction. This is occurring in many more avenues of life other than just music.

Many people smarter than I have said we have more communication technology today than ever, yet communicate less.

 

[beezelbubba]

Yeah, I said somthing smart for a change, huh.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

 

[RFR]

Shit! Now I have to wait 12 hours.

 

[fat_fleet]

I think what happens is someone has their influences growing up and never expands beyond that, so they think that's the best way to do it simply because they like it and it's familiar.

This is what everyone does. Everyone has stuff they like, and stuff they don't like. The stuff they don't like is stuff they "don't open themselves to". Even you for example- all the bands you're about to mention are 30-50 years old. Shouldn't you be listening to Adele and Drake? Music changes maaaan, "get with the times". Or maybe you're "closed minded".

Because programmed drums can and do sound good, and they are on well-done underground/critically acclaimed cult albums (Think Beck, Lou Barlow, Some Devo demos, Kraftwerk, etc, and some other more mainstream artists recorded along to drum machines and then removed them).

If they removed them, they used programmed drums as a click/placeholder.

Ginger Baker recorded to a click track. Did anyone know this?

Almost everyone records to a click track. Using a click track is not the same the same as sampled drums.

Does it change your opinion of Cream?

No.

Are they somehow shitty now?

Not any more or less shitty than I thought they were before.

The mentality is all artificial and an ethos by people who want to feel good about what THEY do at the expense of putting people down, rather than change themselves.

So even if you're making music you absolutely love and feel, if you hear someone else doing something that works, you're OBLIGATED TO IMITATE THEM just to "stay current"? Doesn't that undermine originality?

The mentality is all artificial and an ethos by people who want to feel good about what THEY do at the expense of putting people down, rather than change themselves. It's easier to put someone else down than to look in the mirror and change yourself or open your mind.

Hey man, I assume you use digital percussion and you're reacting because you feel offended or threatened by people's preference for real percussion. If it pleases you, they are a dying minority. There's no need to stomp them into the ground, name calling and implying "closed mindedness". I know in my case, I've stated a few times that robo-drums are just completely useless for anything I'd want to do. I acknowledge that they sound ok in the music of Drake or Adele though.

 

[4tracker]

Many people smarter than I have said we have more communication technology today than ever, yet communicate less.

Probably because the more we communicate, the more we realize most people are awful. Take this thread, for example... lol.

A problem on social media is people can get likes/validation without doing anything, so they sit home, do nothing, and collect the validation points. Humans naturally want to conserve energy and also naturally want to socialize, so it's the best of both worlds. They get to conserve energy and get a social fix via "likes". Just the way it is, but eventually those "likes" will probably stop having effect and they'll have to go out again and socialize.

 

[beezelbubba]

Shit! Now I have to wait 12 hours.

Take heart...being right all the time is exhausting!