Sooooooo tired of fake drum threads.

[Tadpui]

The grooves in EZD/SSD are just MIDI data, not audio. Not exactly sure how they were input (an eKit, triggers on an acoustic kit, or by a post-production MIDI trigger like Slate), but they aren't audio samples. they're MIDI representations of a drum performance. You use that MIDI data to trigger samples in your software.

 

[andrushkiwt]

It's not that the timing is "imperfect", it's that when it deviates from "correct" it does so because a group of musicians is interacting in real time. They can make eye contact, watch each other play, gesture cues, sense and respond to dynamics. The process is so different that the outcome is inevitably different. That's the sense in which programmed drums are not real. Even if everything else about them is real, the performance is not.

I understand that real drums are impossible for most people recording at home. Programmed drums are a fantastic tool and they can sound really good. But it's a mistake to say they're the same as real drums.

i agree, but don't forget that, broken down to the core, those "changes" due to eye contact and gestures are changes in timing and "feel". With snap feature, you can certainly mimic that to whatever extent you want. We can move a hit before or after the beat, by whatever margin we want.

When I played with my old group, i'd look back at the drummer and wait for his arms to start moving toward the cymbals for that final "bam"...well, that hesitation can be created by moving the hit placement tiny increments..or longer, whatever you want, however often you want. it's time consuming, but it can be done. Now, do all ppl use that to their advantage? certainly not, me included. but the capability is there.

 

[Mr Clean]

The grooves in EZD/SSD are just MIDI data, not audio. Not exactly sure how they were input (an eKit, triggers on an acoustic kit, or by a post-production MIDI trigger like Slate), but they aren't audio samples. they're MIDI representations of a drum performance. You use that MIDI data to trigger samples in your software.

This ^^^^

The samples of each drum are recorded by a real drummer hitting single notes at different velocities. Then some ekit player or groove writer will sort out the grooves.

If a drummer played the grooves on a real kit it would have to be audio, not midi and there would be bleed all over the samples.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[andrushkiwt]

This ^^^^

The samples of each drum are recorded by a real drummer hitting single notes at different velocities. Then some ekit player or groove writer will sort out the grooves.

If a drummer played the grooves on a real kit it would have to be audio, not midi and there would be bleed all over the samples.

That's how I see it anyway.

you know you can control bleed level, right? including all the way off

 

[bouldersoundguy]

i agree, but don't forget that, broken down to the core, those "changes" due to eye contact and gestures are changes in timing and "feel". With snap feature, you can certainly mimic that to whatever extent you want. We can move a hit before or after the beat, by whatever margin we want.

When I played with my old group, i'd look back at the drummer and wait for his arms to start moving toward the cymbals for that final "bam"...well, that hesitation can be created by moving the hit placement tiny increments..or longer, whatever you want, however often you want. it's time consuming, but it can be done. Now, do all ppl use that to their advantage? certainly not, me included. but the capability is there.

You're still emulating feel, not replicating it. Even if in some cases a given programmed drum track is better than a given real drum track I still find good real drums to be more interesting than almost any programmed drums.

 

[4tracker]

I still find good real drums to be more interesting than almost any programmed drums.

I don't think anyone, other than musicians in genres that revolve around samples, would argue differently.
Or if the real drummer is awful.

 

[andrushkiwt]

You're still emulating feel, not replicating it. Even if in some cases a given programmed drum track is better than a given real drum track I still find good real drums to be more interesting than almost any programmed drums.

i think it's all in the programmer... i've heard some bad drummers before

 

[andrushkiwt]

I don't think anyone, other than people in genres that revolve around samples, would argue differently.

i just did i think that's a biased remark that isn't taking into account the terrible drummers that exist. i'd rather hear a renowned programmer (if that ever comes to exist) than the worlds worst drummer. so, technically, there is an argument to be made.

you edited your post...now i look like i can't read...thanks 4tracker

 

[4tracker]

i just did i think that's a biased remark that isn't taking into account the terrible drummers that exist. i'd rather hear a renowned programmer (if that ever comes to exist) than the worlds worst drummer. so, technically, there is an argument to be made.

you edited your post...now i look like i can't read...thanks 4tracker

Haha. Sorry. Whenever I write absolutes I always catch myself moments later and tone it down because there are always exceptions. A bad drummer is one of them.

 

[Tadpui]

you know you can control bleed level, right? including all the way off

The fact that you CAN control bleed is further proof that the grooves are samples triggered by MIDI data. Otherwise how on earth would you, for example, get rid of the bleed from the kick drum into the room mic? That can only be accomplished by triggered samples and not from real-time audio recording into a multi-mic setup.

Plus, try dragging your groove from SD and drop it into EZD (or SSD, or whichever sampler). Voila! A whole different kit in a whole different room! Or drop it into EZKeys and behold the most atonal piano solo ever. It's just MIDI data.

 

[andrushkiwt]

The fact that you CAN control bleed is further proof that the grooves are samples triggered by MIDI data. Otherwise how on earth would you, for example, get rid of the bleed from the kick drum into the room mic? That can only be accomplished by triggered samples and not from real-time audio recording into a multi-mic setup.

Plus, try dragging your groove from SD and drop it into EZD (or SSD, or whichever sampler). Voila! A whole different kit in a whole different room! Or drop it into EZKeys and behold the most atonal piano solo ever. It's just MIDI data.

i guess i don't get the point you're making...they want you to be able to edit the grooves they play, so it is in midi form. how does this differ/matter to the overall quality/usefulness. forgive my ignorance.

 

[Tadpui]

I thought that you were implying earlier that the grooves were in audio format. If not, then my mistake.

 

[famous beagle]

I thought that you were implying earlier that the grooves were in audio format. If not, then my mistake.

I think what Andrushkiwt is basically saying is that ... it doesn't really matter. Think about it:

The drummer sits there and records one hits on every drum on the kit. He does this in countless velocities, and the results are sampled into the software. Then, after compiling all the samples into the software, he jumps on a MIDI kit and records a 4-bar groove.

Then he jumps back onto the original kit, still miked up the same way as it was for the sampling, and he plays the same 4-bar groove, this time recorded as audio.

Will you be able to tell the difference? Possibly, but only because the drummer can't play exactly the same way twice.

If you were to do this two times each---record the same groove twice with the MIDI kit (recording MIDI) and twice with the real kit (recording audio)---I'll bet you anything you wouldn't be able to tell them apart reliably in a blind test.

 

[miroslav]

It certainly is possible for a group of musicians to communicate during a performance so that they adjust in sync, to a degree...but realistically, they are not all going to be equally behind on this note or ahead on that note, etc.

IOW...if they did 5 takes, no matter how much eye contact and gestures they made...each of the 5 takes with have different timing imperfections...so in the end, it's all random anyway.
As long as the overall rhythm is tight within the group of players, they can still individually drift slightly in opposite directions and it can still sound tight within the group.
Where a group of musicians has it easier/better, is if they are going to vary the overall pace of a song in sections intentionally...or where they may speed up just 1-2 BPMs during a chorus...etc.
It's not as simple to do that when you are tracking solo, one track at a time...but I don't think that's a major point anyway, as even if you don't speed up a bit during the chorus, it won't make is sound worse..etc.

That certainly is the essence of the whole "human" argument...but since it is always a random set of minute differences...then there's nothing there that can't be imitated. The hard part with software, is making it as subtle and as random so that it sounds and feels human. It takes a goods ear and rhythmic feel to hear when those subtle differences are on the money and when they sound too robotic or way off and just plain weird.

Let's take a click track...if 5 guys play to it at the same time...they will all have their own little timing idiosyncrasies...but they can as a group, still sound tight, and the robotic click track will not make them sound robotic.
You can easily do that on your own too...with a drum app and/or recording one track at a time. Just really listen to the other, previous tracks as you add new ones...that way there will be a cohesiveness, and also that subtle randomness...same as when 5 guys play together.
We always talk about how you CAN play in and around a click track...so you can do the same with a drum app. There is no specific amount or place where a given beat has to be "this much" or "that much" off from the perfect time.
It's random when you play, and random when you sequence.
Not saying you can't consciously always be ahead or behind a beat...just saying that the amount will vary, and be random.

Don't get me wrong...I would rather record 5 good, tight musicians playing together than each of them individually...but the fact that randomness is always involved...if you pay attention and listen as you track individually, you can get to the same place....IMO.

 

[miroslav]

I don't think anyone, other than musicians in genres that revolve around samples, would argue differently.
Or if the real drummer is awful.

I don't think it's just if the real drummer is awful.
I've heard very tight drummers, who can play with conviction and who really work at their playing...yet, they are boring for the most part.
Everything they play sounds canned....and repetitive. They play within their comfort zone, that's it. It may work perfectly for the band gig they are doing, but nothing special to be used for a recording session.
Of course...sometimes a song calls for basic drum playing...anything more, and it gets in the way.

I'm just saying unless you have an exceptional drummer...it's not always magic just 'cuz there's a guy hitting skins.
As a non-drummer, just listening to the drummer during a recording sessions...I've had the opportunity to suggest more interesting beats or fills on a given song than what the drummer was doing at the time.
Granted...it's maybe a question of tastes and ideas that we all have at a given moment...but when I'm sequencing a drum track, I can make it as interesting or as basic as I want.

It cuts both ways.

What works out best is when I can sequence my drum ideas...and then the drummer comes over, listens, and takes my ideas and translates them into something even better at the kit, and then tells me he really likes it.
Then I know we are both on the same page.

 

[Greg_L]

i just did i think that's a biased remark that isn't taking into account the terrible drummers that exist. i'd rather hear a renowned programmer (if that ever comes to exist) than the worlds worst drummer. so, technically, there is an argument to be made.

you edited your post...now i look like i can't read...thanks 4tracker

Your argument is invalid because there are just as many, if not more, probably more, terrible drum programmers.

 

[miroslav]

...there are just as many, if not more, probably more, terrible drum programmers.

I have to agree.

Like I said earlier...it's not the tool that is bad, it's the way people use it...or choose not to use it the way it can be used.
I think real drummers are forced to learn how to play...though granted, some may still suck at it.
With drum sequencing...there is almost a reluctance to learn how to do it well.
It's all about shortcuts...grabbing loops, pressing a few buttons..etc.

I almost blame the software manufacturers to a degree. When they come out with something like EZD2...they are basically telling people to just go with the presets and get their drum tracks quick-n-easy.
It's great for a songwriter being able to lay down a quick canned groove in order to do his songwriting...but then, too often...those canned grooves and loops end up in the final mixes, because many of those guys don't want to get in too deep with drums. They can handle the guitar thing, or some keys...even lay down a basic vocal....but the drums feel too much like work.

 

[Greg_L]

I have to agree.

Like I said earlier...it's not the tool that is bad, it's the way people use it.
I think real drummers are forced to learn how to play...though granted, some may still suck at it.
With drum sequencing...there is almost a reluctance to learn how to do it well.
It's all about shortcuts...grabbing loops, pressing a few buttons..etc.

Agreed. It's the whole instant gratification thing. "Hey that sounds like drums. Okay that's done".

I almost blame the software manufacturers to a degree. When the come out with something like EZD2...they are basically telling people to just go with the presets and get their drum tracks quick-n-easy.
It's great for a songwriter being able to lay down a quick canned groove in order to do his songwriting...but then, too often...those canned grooves and loops end up in the final mixes, because many of those guys don't want to get in too deep with drums. They can handle the guitar thing, or some keys...even lay down a basic vocal....but the drums feel too much like work.

Agreed again. And non-drummers don't know how to deal with it anyway. That's what's so funny to me about threads like this - a bunch of non drummers talking about drums and making outlandish claims and statements. Some of it is legitimate, some of it is just blind ignorance, and some of it defiant excuses and rationalization.

I do know it takes for-fucking-ever to make a legit drum track out of programmed samples and shit. I know it does, and I certainly don't blame anyone for avoiding it if they don't understand what they're doing anyway. But I've also seen and heard first-hand people really sit down and take the time to understand drums, drumming, and get it right, and their efforts have paid huge dividends.

 

[beezelbubba]

I do know it takes for-fucking-ever to make a legit drum track out of programmed samples and shit.

That's my biggest complaint.It's always been a tedious process, but as i get older, more alcohol softened and worse ADD, it's almost impossible to get anything done!

 

[Mr Clean]

But I've also seen and heard first-hand people really sit down and take the time to understand drums, drumming, and get it right, and their efforts have paid huge dividends.

This is where I am and it's great fun learning.