should i buy pro tools?

  • Thread starter Thread starter HabitualG
  • Start date Start date
fenix said:
i'll agree that mixing in protools and plug ins in protools doesn't sound the best. But tracking in Protools HD is a breeze. Editing in protools is fairly easy.


On the HD it sounds pretty good. Nothing wrong with the plugins on PT. If the plug ins suck it has to do with the manufactor of the plug ins and not PT.


If you are using protools as a recorder and mixing on a real board, protools is probably more favorable than adat.

Woaw.....Adats are not in the same league of the HD. The 002 sounds better then Adats as well.
 
I agree that maybe HD sounds much better than mix+++

but the thing is, last year we were having the EXACT same arguments and everyone was saying how great mix+++ was. In most places it was the same situation, same arguments, same people.
But again, it shouldnt matter. You use what makes the desired end result. And that applies as well to people who say PT sucks. If you can get your desired result in it, that is ALL that matters.

My problem comes from mass marketing hype that says it is the ONLY way that things can be done. Yes, ELO, and Yardbirds werent done on PT, but the alsihah and digidesign would have you thinking they were

bands shouldnt give a rats ass what format they are using unless they perfer a certain brand of tape for instance, and are educated. Instead now, because of lying bullshit hype, they think " I need PT I need PT " like its magic.

And I still gotta ask, WHAT industry is PT the standard in ? I see it in cheap studios everywhere, the same places where I see adats. I dont see it much in higher ended studios except when a client wants to be able to work at home, or take his work elsewhere to save money, after using the studios rooms and mics. But in that case I see Logic most of the time, followed by cubase, then Nuendo, then PT, then whatever else, lately a lot of " Nu Jazz" guys running sonar at home too.
 
I never thought I would see the day that Shailat was defending a digital mixer! ;)

Ed
 
sonusman said:
I never thought I would see the day that Shailat was defending a digital mixer! ;)

Ed

At these prices I can't afford to not defend the expense ! :D

Not really defending the "mixer" aspect of PT. I chain to a analog mixer and sum there. BUT ! I have started in certain cases to use the new PT/HD with in 24/96 with decent enough results. And under budget and time restraints it was remarkable.

In perspective what was in the market at the time that you could work with compared to the PT 24 mix?.
Lynx was a good card but not something you could build on multitracking 62 tracks. Paris was competition but collapsed. Adats were ok but not better and editing wasnt really an option compared to PT. The Spectral synthesis Studio was also pretty nice but they also collapsed. The Tascam DA-88 isn't much an improvment over ADATS.
And what about video and audio at the same time?....So....at it's time it was the leading system out there and no wonder Digi had it's ego inflated. It had the leading reliable DAW out there.

Besides we both know that to run a mid sized studio today you have other considerations and you never get the perfect client bundled with the perfect budget. You need to save time be efficient and updated and still stand on two feet at the end of the day. I dont think most people are aware that the majority of studios arent these mega sized, mega budget, recording rock bands who playing pool all day and try out 20 drummers every week, while trashing 300 hours of recorded drum tracks. Most are
trying to survive period.

Show me a better system in sound, reliablity, compatibility, ease of work, cost effective (in time saving issues).
 
Last edited:
Vegas did awesome audio and video during the early PT years, and its interface is unreal fast. VERY nice user interface, in fact the reason I dont use PT is because Vegas takes less keystrokes and mouse clicks than any other app, including PT for the type of work that I do. And just like PT, it was with whatever hardware you wanted to use. It wouldve been hard even then to find MULTI track hardware to use with vegas that sounded as bad as the stock PT hardware. You just needed a digital I/O card and use whatever converters you want.
 
Your choice...

My choice would be to avoid a different hardware with a different companies software....with a software that isn't the major player in Audio and video/DVD and stops producing and supporting after version 2.3.787.

You like imaginary disscussions no?

Calling tech support....

#1 : (after waiting for support for 10 min...long distance) Hi ! ..I'm calling you as I have your Vegas software but as it gets heavy the computer freezes....

#2: What MB are you using?

#1: The new Gl 2000 turbo...

#2: Oh ditch that peice of shit it doesnt work with Vegas realy well...although I have heard that there are some users who have broken off the gold tab on the bottom and got it to work but we wont warrant it any more if you touch it.

#1: WTF I paid a lot of money for that MB....Can I use at least the
Newest Athlon?

#2: only if its version 3.0.52

#1: ^($&&$@$

#2 : And don't forget you can only work during a full moon with garlic by yourside and a cross if you really want results.....

#2: uhhh...are you still there...I forgot to tell you we will stop support for Vegas (like some of our burning software) in 2 months..enjoy.


You lose some of your hair bud....I've been there done it and lost it....
 
Shailat, I have no arguements at all with you on your point of view. Just poking some fun. :D

Ed
 
Shailat said:
Show me a better system in sound, reliablity, compatibility, ease of work, cost effective (in time saving issues).

Radar Nyquist and the analog or digital board of your choice.
 
Shailat said:

Show me a better system in sound, reliablity, compatibility, ease of work, cost effective (in time saving issues).

Failright Dream set-up. Or Fairklight MFX3.48 with a didigtal console.
 
As we now seem to move towards "pro" applications........:)
Let me point out the key reason for my defense of Pro Tools.
Strip a system down to its absolute basic essentials - a recorder and editor. By doing that you eliminate anything considered "bad" in Pro Tools (and once again, the same "bad" points also effect other DAW's).
As an editor and recorder, PT is the most cost effective, the most time effective, the most efficient, and the most stable system out there. If it was not, no commercial studio would use it - quite simple.

I will not defend Digidesign hardware, especially the old stuff, which I considered bad sounding crap. However, the new I/O's are very decent (even tough I only use the digital I/O and none of the Digidesign converters, clocks etc.). Items like for instance the Control 24, which is a superb and extremely cost effective controller, the 002, which is a damn cute little box, the HD MIDI box, which is the most stable midi box I've ever used, are definately steps in the right direction.

In my deranged mind, the core of a modern recording system is the recorder and the editor. Pro Tools does that without fault. Everything else works as well, but can be improved upon.

In this studio we use Pro Tools just like that, as a recorder and editor. We do not use Digidesign's clocks, A/D converters, D/A converters, or summing busses, but have made investments in the best converters money can buy at present. The same goes for the front end, where mics, solid state pre's, tube pre's and compressors are the equivalent or in some case better than those found in the top studios.
The end result is a commercially viable studio capable of competing with the best-of-the-best, at lower overheads, as we did not have to fund the 5 to 8 hundred thousand dollars required to do the same thing with a major console and a couple of 2" machines. (and would have still needed a DAW for editing etc.). The funniest thing of all - the sound quality we now obtain is just about the best I've ever managed to get out of ANY system.

Bringing it down to the "home" level. Its a simple fact that Digidesign offers extremely cost effective "start-up" solutions that sound damn good for the money. A lot of my clients use them to do their songwriting and arrangement work at home, then come here to track live instruments, vocals etc. To transfer one of their tracks to our system takes minutes and we're up-and-running, when we're done we transfer the results back to their SCSI or firewire drives and they can play around with the results at home. Perfect, cost effective solution, and technical errors made in recording taken out of the equation, tracks recorded on 001's, 002's, and even Mboxes have been perfectly useable.

Are there other DAW based recording systems out there that offer all the same benefits? Perhaps yes, if you keep the track counts and plug-in processing at a minimum. But for "heavier" applications? Absolutely not. There was one that sounded good and looked very promising, SAW, but that suffered from genius eccentric development, so often seen in the analogue world as well. Had a company like for instance Steinberg bought SAW we might have seen some viable competition to Pro Tools.
 
sjoko2 said:

As an editor and recorder, PT is the most cost effective, the most time effective, the most efficient, and the most stable system out there. If it was not, no commercial studio would use it - quite simple.


As an ex-PT's user I must disagree. A sfar as stabiltity, I've had horror stories myself. The File management is atrocious. And I hated having to spread files out over multiple drives.

The facility I work at watched a clinet walk out the door with 4 movies becasue of the crashes.

That's why I went for the Fairlight. Way more efficient, and 100% stable. I can edit a show in about half the time on the Failright. That's real money saving.
 
You're obviously talking about the pro tools mix system, in which file management was a pain in the ass, and not HD, which has a very sound file management system.
 
this is silly. The stuff shailat was saying especially. I have used the digidesign stuff since the soundtools days. Back then we had an AMS editor that beat the shit out of it, still I was excited about the technology, I thought that the computer would be better served for midi purposes as the digidesign stuff just wasnt as stable or transparenty as the hardware editors at the time, as clunky as they were. Later as digi grew, their stuff became a low cost alternative for some mastering chores, a poor man's Sonic Solutions. Cubase and logic had come up strong as computer based sequencers so PT was edged out of that for me at the time as well. Still we wouldnbt use a computer if we could help it, we had the finest analog and digital hardware money could buy at the time, SSL G, Neve 51's, Neve 8108's, Neve Kelso's and Neve Melbournes, Trident A-range, 3 Studer 827's ( one with an 8 track headstack), Ampex master munchers, Sony PCM 3348's etc...

Thru Digidesign's persistence and insistance we would always try out the new versions of their products and I had a lot of fun with them. In our cheap room I started using a PT system for doing edits that wouldve been frightening and unredoable on a tape machine. Even to this day I gave the HD system a fair shake, and also at every step of digi's evolution from the beginning.

But what you say about PT vs native just isnt true. I dont get thru a PT session with any less crashes than on a well built native system. And until HD came out there was NO comparison in track count and plugins with PT mix vs native... Native vould have WAY more tracks and WAY WAY WAY more plugins running. With digi's older hard drive limits it was a bitch trying to get the track count up and stupidly expensive as well. I hear theyve fixed that now. PT is playing catch up to native right now, its got some good things going for it, but its just NOT better in a sense that I could get work done any faster in it than my perferred app. I will say that I perfer PT's editing to nearly all native apps, but it is still too many keystrokes as compared to vegas, but a lot less than say, cubeendo.

When I have to use PT I use it, when I have a choice I dont. As a recorder/editor, I dont think you can beat Vegas and radar, I dont know much about fairlight since the 4 track system 8 zillion years ago. I will say that if I had to bet my LIFE on a system NOT crashing in a five minute segemnt, I'd put my money on a properly configured PTHD system running less than 8 tracks and no plugins. Once the track count goes above that, I'd say its a toss up
 
sjoko2 said:
As we now seem to move towards "pro" applications........:)
Let me point out the key reason for my defense of Pro Tools.
Strip a system down to its absolute basic essentials - a recorder and editor. By doing that you eliminate anything considered "bad" in Pro Tools (and once again, the same "bad" points also effect other DAW's).
As an editor and recorder, PT is the most cost effective, the most time effective, the most efficient, and the most stable system out there. If it was not, no commercial studio would use it - quite simple.

I think you actually hurt your argument there. From a basic Recorder/Editor standpoint the Radar would kick it's ass in reliability, ease of use and cost. Radar has 24ch analog I/O and 24ch digital I/O (only a $500 card), a killer clock and there is never a HW or OS compatability issue so it really kicks ass in the hardware dept. All that for around $6-10K depending on options makes it pretty damn cost effective. And you can stick the whole think in a 6 space rack and hit the road. (still need preamps and monitor mixer though.)

The only advantage to PT over Radar is the plugins and mixing. I didn't know Fairlight was still around. What does one of their systems cost?
 
... Native vould have WAY more tracks and WAY WAY WAY more plugins running.
Hmm, I'd have to disagree with you there. You can run native plugins and TDM plugins at the same time. I do it all the time. In that case, I think you can get more plugins off a hardware-augmented system than off a pure native system.

bands shouldnt give a rats ass what format they are using unless they perfer a certain brand of tape for instance, and are educated. Instead now, because of lying bullshit hype, they think " I need PT I need PT " like its magic.
Why not? maybe they have Pro Tools at home, or maybe they know a good Pro Tools editor, or maybe they ARE educated and they just like the system. There are people on this thread who prefer Pro Tools, who sound educated to me. Is it so unbelievable to think that bands could make a decision like that too? If a band walked in and insisted on recording to Vegas, would you say the same thing?
 
I don't know the Rader well enough to comment nor the Fairlight.
During 1986-1990 I used the Synclavier which was the fairlights competition.

Everybody should work on what he is comfortable with.
There can be nothing better then competition to PT for the market. We all gain by it, Home recording/ project studios/ pro studios.

Some guys whos opinion I respect, prefered Paris at the time. I remember telling them that I hope Paris will out live the next 3 years becuase Digi could use a kick in the teeth. It didn't. and it's something to think about. I know Fairlight has been around for a long time but I walk into 100 studios and I might see one. How long can they go about it? And Rader we will have to see.......
 
Shailat said:
I don't know the Rader well enough to comment nor the Fairlight.
During 1986-1990 I used the Synclavier which was the fairlights competition.

Everybody should work on what he is comfortable with.
There can be nothing better then competition to PT for the market. We all gain by it, Home recording/ project studios/ pro studios.

Some guys whos opinion I respect, prefered Paris at the time. I remember telling them that I hope Paris will out live the next 3 years becuase Digi could use a kick in the teeth. It didn't. and it's something to think about. I know Fairlight has been around for a long time but I walk into 100 studios and I might see one. How long can they go about it? And Rader we will have to see.......

Fairlight is already history, but RADAR seems to to very well now, the`re priced within reach for most commercial studios, I guess RADAR will stick around.....

Amund
 
sjoko2 said:

Bringing it down to the "home" level. Its a simple fact that Digidesign offers extremely cost effective "start-up" solutions that sound damn good for the money. A lot of my clients use them to do their songwriting and arrangement work at home, then come here to track live instruments, vocals etc. To transfer one of their tracks to our system takes minutes and we're up-and-running, when we're done we transfer the results back to their SCSI or firewire drives and they can play around with the results at home. Perfect, cost effective solution, and technical errors made in recording taken out of the equation, tracks recorded on 001's, 002's, and even Mboxes have been perfectly useable.

I strongly agree and since I remember Ed saying in a thread that he thought that the 001 was pretty decent sounding I insist he says so or I dig up that thread :p

The 001 doesnt fall from any 16 bit Adat when it runs at 16 bits itself. At 24 it sounds better. The 002 sounds even better then the mix cards !!!. People bring in tracks all the time using those two and they are as Sjoko said perfectly useable !.
 
TexRoadkill said:
I think you actually hurt your argument there. From a basic Recorder/Editor standpoint the Radar would kick it's ass in reliability, ease of use and cost. Radar has 24ch analog I/O and 24ch digital I/O (only a $500 card), a killer clock and there is never a HW or OS compatability issue so it really kicks ass in the hardware dept. All that for around $6-10K depending on options makes it pretty damn cost effective. And you can stick the whole think in a 6 space rack and hit the road. (still need preamps and monitor mixer though.)

The only advantage to PT over Radar is the plugins and mixing. I didn't know Fairlight was still around. What does one of their systems cost?

Fairlight is a very good system, so is Radar, which I've used ever since it first came out. I still have a Radar II for road work, because its so reliable.
However, in this studio we have many sessions with track counts over 60 for normal audio, and well over 100 for film scores. How many radars would you need for that? and what would you need for an editor?? Good systems, no doubt, but very limited in their applications, and expensive with higher track counts
 
Back
Top