should i buy pro tools?

  • Thread starter Thread starter HabitualG
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I again wanted to mention that the reasons posted above, is the reason why many big time engineers are switching to nuendo. Its much cheaper than the protools (although still quite expensive for homerecordists) and the features are amazing. I have been able to customize it to how i like to record and mix.

But correct please if im wrong. I always understood it that nuendo can actually even use the protools core systems? I seem to believe this but i could be mistaken. Please correct me so i can get this straight. I believe this is an important thing behind nuendo for those who love the protools hardware.

danny
 
ed-

What soundcard/converters were you using that worked with PT AND those other programs?

I keep seeing where Nuendo is cheaper than Pro Tools. I can't seem to figure that one out. Nuendo is around $1300 for the software alone. Then the basic soundcard for it is like $700. Then you have to buy converters to use with it. It IS cheaper that PT HD, but way more than any LE system.

Also, the guys at our main studio were checking into this whole Nuendo thing. Everyone says how much better it sounded than Pro Tools so we sent to a couple studios using it to check them out. What we found is that people are comparing a Nuendo system that has AT LEAST an Apogee AD16/DA16 front end on it to stock Pro Tools converters (which are alot less expensive). The truth lies in converters. When the HD system they were using got a converter upgrade, the mixes sounded alot better to everyone.

Also, I have yet to see a time when an OMF transfer didn't screw with something along the way, usually the sound quality and levels.

Like I said before, I personally own Sonar and use it all the stinking time. I really like it for what I do at home. Like it alot. I tried out Nuendo and hated it, frankly. Mainly because I still had to use Sonar for any MIDI, and it was too cumbersome for simple songwriting. I am lucky, in that when I use PT, it's in a stable environment in a studio that did all the setup work before I got there. But it's a pleasure to use for me personally. And again, look at lots of recent CD liners to see who else is using it.

Pro Tools is not the great be-all end-all...but it's not the devil either. My 2 cents. done.

H2H
 
I don't have experience with Nuendo but I heard something the other day about it and I just want to see if it's true. When you record, it bypasses the internal mixer settings to free up the CPU some. So when you record tracks it's fine but when you do overdubs everything is going to be going out to the parallel output (track 1 to output 1, 2 to 2, 3 to 3 ect.) Again I'm not sure if that's true but that would kind of suck wouldn't it?
 
maddrummer, it depends how you have monitoring set up. Monitoring in any app is a joke. Its kinda obvious FEW of the dudes making audio apps have any experience being in a studio whatsoever, and have thrown out traditional monitoring methods.

In nuendo if you have ASIO direct monitor on and yet all channels asssigned to the stereo buss, youll get the behaviour you described. Doing vocal punches this is actually a benefit as it allows you to keep the same channel up while getting lots of takes with no repatching.
If you monitor THRU nuendo, youll use Nuendo's own mixer
If you use ASIO DM and assign each channel to its corresponding outbut youll get regular old tape recorder behaviour

other apps treat this differently, but end up giving you about the same choices
 
fenix said:

Listen to them...especially sonusman and then take back everything you said about PT.
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ANY system can be made to sound good, by someone with good skills. Skill trumps gear every time. Many great albums have been made with ProTools. The second Garbage record comes to mind. (I think their first record, recorded to 2" analog, is sonically more interested, and has better songs. None the less, the second record is a great record.) But it is the skill, and not the gear which makes a recording, or a mix, or whatever, sound good. I stand by what I have said about ProTools, because I have used it. The mix "buss" sounds like crap, and the hardware is overpriced and sub par. Nothing you could possibly post is going to change my opinion of the software, because I have USED it.



Originally posted by Hard2Hear

I keep seeing where Nuendo is cheaper than Pro Tools. I can't seem to figure that one out. Nuendo is around $1300 for the software alone. Then the basic soundcard for it is like $700. Then you have to buy converters to use with it. It IS cheaper that PT HD, but way more than any LE system.
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Why on earth would I compare the price of Nuendo to ProTools LE? LE is the consumer version, Nuendo is the professional version. You can hardly compare the two. ProTools HD and Nuendo is the comparison which makes sense.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Fenix, what's the effect on the vocal track of Long Life? Besides the doubling, is there a slight chorus on it? Maybe it's reverb. Whatever it is, it's very subtle.

Nice mixes, very balanced. Top notch work.

When it first started playing, I thought I heard some compressor pumping, then I realized my compressor was on and doing it's best to squash the sound down to nothing. Ooops.
 
A couple of thing might be worth mentioning

1. Pro Tools is THE standard professional DAW, period. If you wonder why....... stop wondering, it is the #1 for good reasons, unless of cause the vast majority of engineers around the world are clueless, earless morons.

2. The whole thing of "a load of major name engineers are switching to Nuendo" ------ For that please read: "a load of major name engineers were given complete Nuendo systems for free in return for the use of their name". I'm not saying its a bad system, but know a couple of them with Nuendo systems at home, working on Pro Tools in the studio. Don't always believe the hype.

3. You get what you pay for. For the money, systems like the Mbox for under 500 bucks, the 001, the 002, are extremely good value for money compared to other systems, with the major advantage being that they are all-in-one systems, so you don't have to struggle with non-compettable soundcards and the like.

4. Also under the you get what you pay for banner - you can get very good results with something like an Mbox for instance, but don't compare it to a top 2" machine or a top digital system. An Mbox has 2 A/D and 2 D/A converters as well as 2 pre's. All for under 500 bucks. If I would take the cost of 2 of our A/D's, D/A's and pre's here, multiply that figure by at least 10. Then add clocks and sample rate converters, etc. etc.

5. As far as all the "I have compared a to b to c and" stuff goes, it is very difficult if not impossible to do a fair comparison. Things improve all the time, just look at for instance Pro Tools Mix with a 888/24 I/O and compare it to a Pro Tools HD with a 192 I/O. Compare the first to a Nuendo system and it will sound bad using its generic components. Compare the second to Nuendo and it will sound much better ......... and then it still all depends on all the components that are hanging on the systems.

In conclusion, I think one of the key reasons why people always seem to bash Pro Tools is because its human nature to try and pull down a market leader. Also, the shear number of users means there will be more of them with something to say, be it good or bad. As far as I'm concerned - and having used most of the "pro" DAW systems in a professional capacity, Pro Tools is the most user friendly and the most time effective system. But even a large Pro Tools system will have its shortcomings, like the much discussed "summing problems" of high track count sessions. Is this a Pro Tools exclusive problem? Hell no!! The problem exists in all DAW's, as summing normally takes place through one single chip. It a problem that can be solved. It is the reason many "artists with a budget" will record and mix in Pro Tools, and then go to a studio with a large frame analogue console to route / sum their tracks (and in the vast majority of cases fuck their sound up by using crap converters). We solve the "problem by using an all digital summing system, whith a number of cards, each one fitted with 4 powerful sarks capable of routing 32 channels. This system solves the routing problem without introducing any loss or digital artifacts, in fact it sound much better than routing a high track count through any large frame analogue consoles. The reason why its not part of any, even the most expensive DAW's on the market? The routing system costs more than any DAW on the market, its that simple.

If I carry on I'll become like Sonus and start writing mini books!!:D
 
darnold said:
and ntracks? i hear thats the easiest of any program to learn, and its amazingly low price.
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Yeah, but it's unstable as hell. This program ruined my life for 6 months, and I have made it my goal to tirelessly crusade against it. :) IT SUCKS! DO NOT BUY THIS PROGRAM! IT WILL DESTROY YOUR WILL TO LIVE!
 
While I typically like to jump in on the PT bashing threads just to annoy people. I have used lots of things and they all sound a little different, each one has plus's and minus's. What it boild down to for the home recordist is value. PT software for LE in the early days was alot more expensive, but Digidesign keeps adding more to it, while the price keeps coming down. For value sake, I don't think personally there is anything close to PT LE with the Mbox. Ive been doing more and more mouse mixing lately, at first I didn't like it, but its ok.

Ive been using Cakewalk products since the mid to late 80's, some beta versioning at the studio I interned at. Ive been using N-track, Logic Audio for a year and CEP2X for about 2 weeks. One of my friends owns a bigger studio and he is always buying stuff, tries it an sometimes passes it on for me to use or buy. Since Im a slow fella mentally, I still have a 1/2" 16 track E-16, and a WR-T820B desk. I have had a Yamaha 4 track for 14 years and a Yamaha MD8 for about 4 years. In the old days..DAW's were slow, horrible, error prone toys that keyboardists tried to use. But the power of computers and the software now avialble is incredible. I like 2" Studer 827's, but its not feasible without tons of time and cash available as a home recorder. In a big label driven studio, its not a concern mostly. Times have changed. Budgets are tighter, time is shorter and the number of audiophile consumers has decreased. Digital summing is a problem. Sonusman is right about input levels, he isn't the first to say it. I could go on and on about everything that bugs me but it always boils down to one thing. Can you afford to have perfection? Or can you settle for acceptable. If I had $500 buck to turn my PC into a DAW. There is only one answer. Mbox. The cute little hitch about thinking you can take a project you did on a 001, 002 or Mbox into a big studio to mix is that you tracked everything in your house. You would be hugely surprised on what that will translate like. But that shouldn't deter you from doing the best you can at home with what you can afford.
We can't compare pro level gear with stuff designed for the consumer world. There are reasons why. Its like trying to compare a LXP-5 to a 960L with a LARC2. Or a Radio Shack Mic to a Neumann. Or a Pinto to a Ferrari. Im not being a gear snob or anything because Ive been both ends of the spectrum. I spend entirely too much time complaining about What do like about something rather than basking in the enjoyment of the things that work great.

For those interested into Sjoko2's world of what kinda of playing field he is on and what type of converters are required at the upper end of using PT here is a link.
http://webbd.nls.net/webboard/wbpx.dll/read?56916,6
In the digital world, the converters will make you or destroy you.

My 2 drachma's

SoMm
 
Son of Mixerman said:
If I had $500 buck to turn my PC into a DAW. There is only one answer. Mbox.
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Well,considering that most people here will not take their stuff to a larger studio, I can`t see why anyone will want to buy a PT Mbox......
Mbox is most definetly not the only answer!

Amund
 
(yawn)

Does anybody but me get tired of this-program-is-better-than-that-program threads? That isn't even what the thread starter was asking...

While there has been lots of good points about the pros and cons of various systems, isn't it pretty evident by now that each system has its advantages and disadvantages?

Fact: Pro Tools is the industry standard. Period. There is no contesting this regardless of how many engineers you know of who use other things. It may change in the future but it is still true at the moment.

Fact: Industry standards don't always mean the "best" system availible for any given situation, even professional ones. Many mobile recording facilities still use 20-bit ADATs. Some facilities track to 2" tape and transfer to PT for editing. There are no hard rules here.

Fact: "Industry" standards are almost always significantly different than "home" standards: in terms of price, quality, and durability.

Fact: Pro Tools LE systems are NOT EVEN CLOSE to the industry standard that has been talked about in this thread. It is Digi's bid for some share of the home and prosumer market. Apples and Oranges, here.

Pro Tools being the industry standard has absolutely no bearing on whether you should concider buying Digidesign's low end PT LE systems, unless you have some interest in being involved with the Pro Tools environment or the "industry."

Do your own research, make your own choices, use your own ears because you are most likely going to be spending your own money and time on the system.

Take care,
Chris
 
"Fact: Pro Tools is the industry standard. Period. There is no contesting this regardless of how many engineers you know of who use other things. It may change in the future but it is still true at the moment.
"

bullshit

"1. Pro Tools is THE standard professional DAW, period. If you wonder why....... stop wondering, it is the #1 for good reasons, unless of cause the vast majority of engineers around the world are clueless, earless morons.
"

more bullshit

and yeah, considering PT is probably the ONE app that doesnt even have plugin delay compensation, Ill let the clueless earless morons answer for themselves
 
pipelineaudio said:
"Fact: Pro Tools is the industry standard. Period. There is no contesting this regardless of how many engineers you know of who use other things. It may change in the future but it is still true at the moment.
"

bullshit

"1. Pro Tools is THE standard professional DAW, period. If you wonder why....... stop wondering, it is the #1 for good reasons, unless of cause the vast majority of engineers around the world are clueless, earless morons.
"

more bullshit

and yeah, considering PT is probably the ONE app that doesnt even have plugin delay compensation, Ill let the clueless earless morons answer for themselves
Click to expand...


PT IS the industry standard. Name some commercial shit done with Nuendo.

Delay compensation? I had 39 waves plugins in one session with no latency problems. You will get latency with the Waves mastering plugins...but they were meant to master, not go on individual tracks. You must be running PT on a crap mac.
 
I cant think of too many albums where PT really was used. I dont see many guys I respect using any software whatsoever. The one exception I can think of was Rick Rubin one time, recording both to PT and to 2" at the same time, so he could play around with the tracks to get mixing ideas.
 
Blink 182 "enema of the state" PT to 2" then to sony digital tape
blink 182 "take of your pants..." PT to sony digital tape
Silverchair "diorama" Protools


those are 3 albums off the top of my head done on protools. I can list more
 
"Blink 182 "enema of the state" PT to 2" then to sony digital tape
blink 182 "take of your pants..." PT to sony digital tape
Silverchair "diorama" Protools
"

wow, I've seen protools HATERS before, but never one who hated PT enough to blame the travesty of those albums on PT!
 
pipelineaudio said:
I cant think of too many albums where PT really was used. I dont see many guys I respect using any software whatsoever. The one exception I can think of was Rick Rubin one time, recording both to PT and to 2" at the same time, so he could play around with the tracks to get mixing ideas.
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you are kidding right? Either that or just terribly missinformed and out-of-touch:D
 
sjoko2 said:
with the major advantage being that they are all-in-one systems, so you don't have to struggle with non-compettable soundcards and the like.
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This is key here!
2 years using a digi 001 with ProTools LE on a Mac G4 and not one single glitch...literally...it ALWAYS does what it's supposed to do and it has from the moment I installed it. Just snap the sound card in, plug in the breakout box, install the software and you're up and running.

Maybe the sound isn't perfect, but I'd guess that most home recorders like me would never know the difference. I now have a system that sounds a zillion times better and does a zillion more things than the 4 track cassette recorder I used for years.

For pros, I have no idea what is best. But the all-in-one system allows for home recorders to record rather than spend their time trouble shooting. Add to that the software is extremely intuitive. No complaints here about the digi 001.
 
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