Should I be hitting the tape harder?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Seeker of Rock
  • Start date Start date
Man, this sucks. I listened to the MSR with channels engaged but no input and I can still hear pops and crackles, same as I did very prominently with the Dolby engaged, much less noticeable without it engaged, but still there. I don't know what is causing it, but again I can't help to know I just got a machine with issues. I'm really tired of spending money on this. I may buy another MSR16, one (hopefully) with working NR, no pops and crackles in the signal, etc, etc. Take the record/play head from this one which is I'm told in great shape with a fresh relap (not from excessive wear, but from uneven wear), new tach roller, pinch roller, and just swap parts. Not sure what else to do at this point, and I think that may be my best option. Any places you would recommend me looking online where the machines are analyzed professionally before sold?
 
If you say you push the L/R button down on all the channels you use then you MAY BE summing. This doubling of sound could be the cause of the hum.
In other words:
If you are assigning a channel to one of the submaster busses, like the channel for the output from your drum module, you don't want to have the L/R button down (engaged) on that channel.
Because you want to monitor that signal from on the channel that comes back into your board from the multitrack.

So your used to the 488MK and now your using a board and 16 track - a couple of things are different - I'll list and maybe it will help, or maybe you already know, but here:

Since you are using a drum module, you won't need to record all 16 tracks at one time. If you were recording live drums then you would record all 16 tracks by using bus outs 1-8 and the direct outs on top of the board for channels 17-24.
But since you record from drum module, you can set up for
8-track-max-simultaneous-record.
Run cables like this:
MSR16 outputs 1-16 to Makie Tape Returns 1-16.
Mackie Submaster Tape Outputs 1-8 to MSR16 intputs 1-8.
Mackie Submaster Tape Outputs 9-16 to MSR16 intputs 9-16.
Now use Mackie channels 17-24 as you're input strips from the drum module. These channels should be assigned to Bus channels and not to L/R Mix.
EXAMPLE:
Let's say your drum module has a stereo output and a pair of aux outputs, like the Alesis D4 drum module, so total of 4 outputs from your drum module.
I don't know maybe you have more on yours, but you have at least 2 and I'll limit this example to 4 and you go from there.
On the drum module:
assign kick drum to main and pan left.
assign snare to main and pan right.
assign toms to aux and pan left.
assign cymbals to aux and pan right.
Run cables so from drum module:
Kick to mackie channel 17.
Snare to mackie channel 18.
Toms to makie channel 19.
Cymbals to mackie channel 20.
You can use channels 21-24 for a couple of stereo returns from outboard gear like reverb. It's better to use the channel strips for the effects returns when you can, so that you can EQ them.
So now mackie channel 17 (Kick) pan left and assign to bus 1-2.
That will send that signal to MSR track 1.
The signal comes back to mackie chnnel 1.
Assign that channel to the L/R Mix.
Repeat this for the other channels,
and just like your 488MK,
pan to the left to assign to 1,3,5,7.
pan to the right toassign to 2,4,6,8.






I'M NOT SURE HOW YOU HAVE YOUR CONTROL ROOM SET UP.
THIS IS A GOOD SET UP:
In the MONITOR section of the board, make sure that only "L/R MIX" is engaged.
Use CNTRL RM knob for volume.
The CNTRL RM OUTPUT jacks should connect to your monitor amp.
 
Thanks man. Great advice. DM Pro has six outputs. I have them running into channels 1-6 right now, channel direct outs into the MSR (instead of submaster tape outs) and then returning through the Tape Returns channels 1-16 back into the board. I'll work on the board some more because I am just starting to attempt to learn the way it works and what it will do. There is a very good chance that the hum is from a loop I created somewhere. Unfortunately, the pops and crackles in the MSR are not, so I'm still bummed about that.
Thanks again for the great advice. Different than the way I am running things, and I'm anxious to try it. :)
 
Have you thought about just running the drum module straight to the recorder? and just bypass the mackie input? If its something you use all the time why not just dedicate it.
 
Actually, that notion did cross my mind. I am planning on doing that with instruments/voices I put directly through my Joemeek. I thought going through the board may further tame some digitalness, but I feel pretty good about the sounds it is giving, so yeah, that sounds like a great idea! I will still have to work out what is probably the "summing" I am likely creating. Nothing I can do about the "pops and crackles" and I am going to start keeping my eyes out for a new reel, preferrably an MSR but I'll see what my options are when I look.
Cool thing about going direct into the recorder too is there is not a lot of room for connection error. I can set the levels inside the DM Pro. Eventually I will need to learn it, but if at this point going through the board is a step I can live without for my drums, then cool. :) :) :)
 
Alright, I need to learn the board eventually, so I followed Mackie's suggested setup. I learned one thing already. It says in the setup you can either output via the channel direct outs or the submaster tape outs. Well the direct out doesn't have a -10db button like the tape outs. I repatched, engaged the -10db button on the outs and now the MSR levels and board meters are perfectly in synch. So my guess is that I was running at +4 out from the channel direct outs to the corresponding MSR ins and that is what was overloading the signal. :)
 
Gosh, that's a great relief to hear!

There's that old thing, about RTFM again! :eek: ;)
 
(in heavy Spanish dialect)...manuals?! We don't need no stinkin' manuals!
Yeah, yeah. Besides Dave, what I learned on the board from the manual was what you told me several months back when I first got the board and you were trying to acclimate me to the new board by comparing tracking setup to my 488MKII. Assign the channels, then pan left/right. Amazingly, it felt like just a bigger version of the 488 board once I started doing it. I just have short-term memory, that's all. ;) :D
Tech tells me to pull the levels down a little and to keep strong in the greens on the MSR, occasionally showing the first bar of red. Still that damn hum though, as well as the faint pops and crackles. Thinking about getting an MS-16 unless a good MSR-16 that I can switch parts with pops up. Thought about the MSR I have and I just have too many softer acoustic tunes to record, so I know this is going to be a problem. :(
 
I have to wake up in 5 hours some time for sleep. Quick question...I moved my board away from the DM PRO so I could tweak it while behind the kit. I used a TRS snake to go from the outs of the DM PRO to the line ins on the board. Although the DM PRO outs are only TS and I believe the Mackie line ins are the same, TS, would this be the source of the 60 cycle hum? I'll plug some TS cords back in tomorrow, but just shooting in the dark. At least if I find the source of the hum that will be one less thing to worry about. Anyone know off the top of their head?
 
Seeker of Rock said:
II used a TRS snake to go from the outs of the DM PRO to the line ins on the board. Although the DM PRO outs are only TS and I believe the Mackie line ins are the same, TS, would this be the source of the 60 cycle hum?
Click to expand...
I would have thought the Mackie line ins were balanced, in which case you could well have the ring floating - not a good idea and you'll get all kinds of crap there. Use a TS at each end if its unbalanced.
 
So if it is unbalanced, will TRS cords produce noise then?
 
I A/b'd TRS and TS in and out from the DM Pro and honestly didn't hear a difference or anything unusual. :confused:
 
Seeker of Rock said:
So if it is unbalanced, will TRS cords produce noise then?
Click to expand...
Depends on the design of the input stage. If one 'side' of a balanced connection is floating (i.e. no signal and not earthed) and there's nothing tying that line to earth somewhere (a resistor in the input stage) then you could have noise problems - its unlikely that the Mackie would give that kind of problem, as I'm sure they would make sure the signal is referenced back to the mixers own earth somewhere by a resistor, but if you're coming out of an unbalanced source I'd certainly use a TS rather than TRS.

On the other hand if you're balanced out -> balanced in then go TRS-TRS; unbalanced -> unbalanced doesn't matter if you're TRS or TS, if you go TRS one line just isn't used.
 
Seeker of Rock said:
I A/b'd TRS and TS in and out from the DM Pro and honestly didn't hear a difference or anything unusual. :confused:
Click to expand...
OK, you're fine then. The Mackie's input stage is referencing things properly (as you'd expect from a Mackie; just don't try it with a Behringer :D ).

I still don't quite understand where your noise is coming from. Where do you first hear it in the recording chain?
 
I hear it in playback from the MSR. I have the monitor section setup so I can hear what is going to tape, but somewhere during playback I get it. Not sure if it is like you said, a summing somewhere (loop I guess?), something wrong in the Mackie's monitoring system or something on the MSR. I guess I should check my cords as well (been meaning to buy a cord tester anyway). I'll play with the board some more later today (have to take my son to a truck exhibition at a local park in an hour :) ). I believe I have done everything per the manual so far, but still that HUM!!! Arrrggghhhh!
 
Seeker of Rock said:
I hear it in playback from the MSR. I have the monitor section setup so I can hear what is going to tape, but somewhere during playback I get it. Not sure if it is like you said, a summing somewhere (loop I guess?), something wrong in the Mackie's monitoring system or something on the MSR. I guess I should check my cords as well (been meaning to buy a cord tester anyway). I'll play with the board some more later today (have to take my son to a truck exhibition at a local park in an hour :) ). I believe I have done everything per the manual so far, but still that HUM!!! Arrrggghhhh!
Click to expand...
Try listening to the output of the MSR without the Mackie connected, just running RCA into a domestic stereo, headphone amp or something. Seeing its an unbalanced connection you could also have an earth loop - try lifting the earth on either the Mackie or the MSR and having nothing else plugged in and see if that helps.
 
Man, this has been a long day. Well I got the cable tester. Didn't test each one, but no problems on the ones I did. I did find this...after plugging and unplugging and switching switches on the Mackie, when I unplugged the cables running from the MSR going into the Mackie tape returns, the hum stopped completely, but progressively with each cable. There wasn't one magic cable that did it, the more I unplugged the less hum there was until all were unplugged and only a hint of hiss in the Mackie from having the levels and monitor level maxed. Basically nothing. Another thing...one all the cables are plugged back in but the MSR is off, still hear hum. When I unplug the power cord to the MSR hear can hear and very slight roll-off of hum. I wonder if that ribbon cable or whatever the tech fixed was soldered properly. I don't know, but the MSR seems to introduce it when coming back into the Mackie.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the meters on the MSR...I set the levels out of the board to keep them around '0' on the MSR's meters going in, but when I play back they start to push two or three bars into the red of the MSR. I'm assuming the MSR meters are gauging signal "in" when recording and signal "out" in playback mode, and that the difference may likely be the calibration the tech did to "hit it harder" for the GP9 tape setup I had him do. Maybe this is just amplifying a hum that already existed in the MSR, now it is more pronounced since the saturation is heavier and internal saturation levels include, unfortunately, that hum? :confused: I don't hear hum when sending the signals and monitoring during playing either, only on the return.
 
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Seeker of Rock said:
When I unplug the power cord to the MSR hear can hear and very slight roll-off of hum.
Click to expand...
If you're still getting some hum with it unplugged then its less likely to be an earth loop. From memory it was straight 60 Hz hum which is either induction or earth loop.

Do you have any other equipment plugged in at the same time? I think I've said it before, so apologies if I'm being repetitive, but unplug everything but the Mackie and the MSR - all your preamps, effects, mics, everything. Take the MSR out of a rack if its in one, so its just sitting on its own. Plug the Mackie and the MSR into their own circuit. Plug the Mackie and MSR in together and listen through headphones to see if there's still hum. If there is, try lifting the earth to one or the other and see if it goes away.

Let me know how you get on, or if you've already tried this.

Also, check the location of any power cables in the walls near your studio. Try moving the MSR, rotating it etc - if the hum level changes then it could be induction from an external source.

(anyone else with more experience feel free to chime in!)
 
Andrew, thanks for the continued support, man. I really appreciate :) :) :) :) . I have tried rolling the MSR away from the board, none of my outboard gear is turned on at this point(not unplugged, but not powered), just recording straight from the DM PRO into the board to the MSR and back. Monitors are on, that is all. Have the Mackie PS running into a Furman, same with the MSR...isolated both and still the same. This is why it was a long day...I tried every conceivable plugging scenario I could fathom, monitors off and headphones only, rolling the MSR about 10' away from the board, running extension cords from the MSR to send it to another breaker in the house, same with the Mackie power supply, turned off lights, my computer and monitors back here in the "wanna be studio room"m turned off the Dm Pro, unplugged the inputs of the DM Pro, etc. Basically, there doesn't seem to be a problem until the tape returns are plugged into the Mackie. I believe, but can't remember for sure, that I unplugged the outs of the MSR but left the cords plugged into the tape returns of the board and all was fine. If I get a wild hair tonight, though it is late, I may retry. Good news and actually I feel damn good about it, is that I seem to have isolated the problem area, not the cause but at least the area :) . I was really worried, and of course all is not clear yet, that it was something in the board. The board is one of my best "bargain" purchases I have made from ebay, though it was local. I have been nothing but happy with the sound of the Mackie, and to have not one but two problem children, that would have sucked. Again, it could still be something in the tape return section of the board, but given the MSR ongoing problems Occam's Razor would lean toward that. I am going to borrow my neighbor's multimeter tomorrow and check the outlets that I have these things plugged into, existing and the ones I have tried alternately on different circuits, and just make sure the polarity correct. Dirty power? Well it is a 1952 house, but the extension 'Florida Room' all of this is in is circa 1981...not new, but new type of wiring and the main panels were upgraded during the renovation from glass fuse to circuit breaker. If it is the MSR which right now that is what it seems, I need to figure whether to get a new MSR (already have some really good snakes 1/4" to RCA with Switchcraft ends), look into an MS-16 which I really dig the idea of but again I will likely be buying "blind" and asking the right questions as well as using PayPal to at least get some security if there is a dispute, or buying a new Alesis HD24. I would still be partially analog with the latter, but I just don't know that the long term media I trust, don't want to switch media and 'upgrade' 5 years down the road, and I really am not sure of how separated the sound may come off. Those are the bad points for me. I am casually looking at them though. I want to hear one before anything else, but I bet it would do well with my setup anyway. My first choice would be an MS-16 (well besides a big 2" 30 ips machine and a live-in tech), but for a couple grand and my bad experience with the MSR, it is just hard to be absolute. Sound like I've given up on the MSR? Not yet, I want to check the polarity of the outlets tomorrow. Otherwise it would be another trip to the tech and I'm really tired of the money spent, not to mention the 3-hour round trip drive.

EDIT: Oh yeah, something that worries me on an HD24, though the converters are supposedly good ones, is that I would converting analog in converting to digital, then converting back to analog to the board for mixdown (mixing on a computer screen I don't think I could ever do...that is probably the biggest thing about the consumer digital process that turns my stomach the most). And then converting back to digital to get it postable/producable. Unless of course I sold my CDRW700 and got a tape mastering deck. But it is still going to be converted for listening and sharing somewhere down the line. The plus side is if I buy new, I can always test drive it and return it if I don't like it. Man, I hate when my sensible side creeps out of me. :(
 
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