Scrapped plans and redesigned, already framed

[undrgrnd studio]

I hope I am not reading this right.
2 x 4 ceiling joists?
The span must be really tiny, or.........

You read right. However I have 2 2x10's sandwiching plywood as beams. So I took a 15 foot span and turned it into 3 5 foot spans. Works like a charm. I placed the beams in between the existing ceiling joists to reduce wasted space that would have resulted in a low ceiling. So now I have 7' 2" ceilings instead of 6' 8".

As far as electrical goes, I've never done it my father has though, I've got him working on that today. I'll have to let him know about the putty packs.

BTW I am only doing one layer of drywall, not two. I am using 5/8th fire rated drywall though. And I do have cement walls between me and my neighbors. I 'm not sure how effective a second layer of drywall would be. That would be like adding a 3rd leaf on two walls, and a fourth leaf on the other two walls, since I am drywalling the back of them.

Track lighting I figured would reduce holes, if I use regular lighting won't I have to open up the ceiling?

 

[undrgrnd studio]

They had no solid core doors at Lowes, I would have to order one. All they had was solid doors with panels. I figured those doors wouldn't work because the panels are always thin and the doors aren't one solid piece.

If I wanted a solid oak door the price is $189 prehung. I need two. They had a luan faced solid particle board prehung door for $110. That's probably the type I'll have to buy. Particle board is actually very dense so I'm sure it'll work fine. Still though, I don't want to spend $220 plus tax just on doors.

Other than that I'm out of ideas.

 

[tmix]

The Particle board type is better anyway, more density.

 

[Rod Gervais]

BTW I am only doing one layer of drywall, not two. I am using 5/8th fire rated drywall though. And I do have cement walls between me and my neighbors. I 'm not sure how effective a second layer of drywall would be. That would be like adding a 3rd leaf on two walls, and a fourth leaf on the other two walls, since I am drywalling the back of them.

First off - you don't understand walls or (rather) leaves,,,,,

If you have 2 wall frames - and on the outside face (of each wall) you put one layer of drywall - that constitutes 2 leaves.

Add another layer of drywall to those faces and you have 4 sheets - still 2 leaves..........

NOW - add a single sheet in between the 2 wall frames - 3 leaves........

2nd - a signel sheet of drywall isn't going to do squat for isolation - especially to the rest of the house -

If that's all you're going to do - then the door is the least of your worries.

Rod

 

[undrgrnd studio]

No I probably don't understand. What I do know is that a free standing structure with insulated walls and ceiling that is covered in 5/8th fire rated sheet rock is WAY better than playing in an open basement.

I will have 4 walls. Two of these walls are standing an inch away from the concrete walls. These two walls will not have sheetrock on the outside of the wall. One of them is facing a neighbors basement. This wall seems to be less problematic because I have never heard any noise coming through it, and that side is stagerred by about 5'. The other wall is facing a concrete wall that connects to nothing.

The next two walls WILL have sheetrock on the other side. I will have 5/8th sheetrock on the interior side, then glass insulation, and then 1/2" sheetrock on the other side. On one wall has an open air gap of 4 feet before reaching the concrete wall separating our apartments, this is the apartment/wall that transfers the most noise. On the other wall there is a 12' open air gap to the concrete wall with nothing on the other side.

 

[Rod Gervais]

No I probably don't understand. What I do know is that a free standing structure with insulated walls and ceiling that is covered in 5/8th fire rated sheet rock is WAY better than playing in an open basement.

Sure it is - just like eating a piece of bread (3 times a day) is better than starving - but is not what I would consider an adequate diet.

Walls - even with isolated framing - with a single layer of drywall on each face is no isolation - and what's going to kill you with the neighbors is flanking not the concrete per-se.


The biggest problem is going to be low frequency - and that will even travel through the concrete wall with ease.........

just to give you a feel at the numbers - this was something I recently posted at another thread on the subject -

The added isolation ( W/ both conditions utilizing 3 1/2" fluffy F>G> insulation) would be as follows:

Your wall.................................................w/ added drywall inside
1 single layer of 13 mm gyp board…....single layer of 13 mm gyp board
1.1...................................................single layer of 13 mm type GB
2 90 mm wood studs at 406 mm………….90 mm wood studs at 406 mm
3 90 mm of glass fibre insulation …………90 mm glass fibre insulation
4 25 mm gap filled with air…………………..25 mm gap filled with air
5 90 mm wood studs at 406 mm………….90 mm wood studs at 406 mm
6 90 mm of glass fibre insulation…………90 mm of glass fibre insulation
7 single layer of 13 mm type X G.B.……single layer of 13 mm type X G.B
8 single layer of 13 mm type X G.B.……single layer of 13 mm type X G.B


TestID TL-93-271………………………………………… TestID TL-93-272
STC 62…………………………………………………… STC 66
50 Hz 20.0……………………………………………….. 50 Hz 23.7
63 Hz 22.5……………………………………………….. 63 Hz 27.8
80 Hz 28.2……………………………………………….. 80 Hz 32.9
100 Hz 33.8……………………………………………… 100 Hz 38.0
125 Hz 38.0 …………………………………………….. 125 Hz 42.4
160 Hz 43.5…………………………………………….. 160 Hz 49.2
200 Hz 48.7……………………………………………… 200 Hz 54.4
250 Hz 55.8……………………………………………… 250 Hz 60.8
315 Hz 60.8 …………………………………………….. 315 Hz 65.8
400 Hz 65.8 …………………………………………….. 400 Hz 70.1
500 Hz 68.5……………………………………………… 500 Hz 72.7
630 Hz 72.3……………………………………………… 630 Hz 75.4
800 Hz 76.5……………………………………………… 800 Hz 77.9
1000 Hz 80.1……………………………………………. 1000 Hz 81.4
1250 Hz 83.4 ……………………………………………. 1250 Hz 83.8
1600 Hz 87.7……………………………………………. 1600 Hz 86.4
2000 Hz 86.8……………………………………………. 2000 Hz 86.0
2500 Hz 78.1……………………………………………. 2500 Hz 79.4
3150 Hz 78.2……………………………………………. 3150 Hz 79.8
4000 Hz 83.9……………………………………………. 4000 Hz 85.3
5000 Hz 89.1……………………………………………. 5000 Hz 90.3
6300 Hz 90.1…………………………………………….. 6300 Hz 90.7

Note that there isn't much gain at all in the high end - BUT - you have some rreal nice gains in the low end.

Test results from IR-761 GYPSUM BOARD WALLS:TRANSMISSION LOSS DATA By R.E. Halliwell, T.R.T. Nightingale, A.C.C. Warnock, J.A. Birta

Sincerely,

Rod

 

[JuliánFernández]

Rod, how are you!?

I didn´t understand the test results that you just posted...

Which kind of walls were tested?

Thanks!

 

[undrgrnd studio]

So you saying if doubled the 5/8th drywall on ALL the interior walls I would see an STC increase from 62 to 66?

I did notice some decent gains on the lower end. The problem is, I would need an additional 22 sheets of drywall, plus the time it takes to haul it home and down to the basement, and then put it all up. It would also cost another $200.

I just don't know that the STC difference is great enough to make up for the added time and cost.

Honestly would you? I think the layout I did will benefit me from 0 - 62. Now add the concrete wall between the neighbors, and what are we talking now. Will the extra drywall really help that much more when taking that into account?

I'm serious here, I would consider it if it was really worth my while. It would be a tough sell to my father who's been doing half the work with me though. Lol.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

I'm going to build you a drawing, give me a minute.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Pic

OK Here is a basic layout. Remember this is a floating room with it's own ceiling and NOTHING is touching any other part of the basement except the walls are mounted to the concrete floor.

 

[Rod Gervais]

OK - think I'm done here - you want to build single stud frame walls with a layer of 5/8" on one side and a layer of 1/2" on the other - and you're going to have a HT that you play at very low volumes - tghat's your business - I told you what you would have to do to begin with to acheive a reasonable (just reasonable) level of isolation - nothing fancy - and you keep coming back with walls that you will be able to hear a general conversation through - never mind keep out any bass frequencies at all...........

I continue to tell you the same thing over and over - I even give you emphirical proof - and you still insist (on believing) that you can acheive reasonable isolation with the construction you're showing.

So ok - believe what ytou wish - build it exactly like you've shown and it will be perfect for you - and you will live with it and love it and happiness will reign forever more......

But it will do so without my wasting my time...........

Good luck,

Rod

 

[undrgrnd studio]

OK - think I'm done here - you want to build single stud frame walls with a layer of 5/8" on one side and a layer of 1/2" on the other - and you're going to have a HT that you play at very low volumes - tghat's your business - I told you what you would have to do to begin with to acheive a reasonable (just reasonable) level of isolation - nothing fancy - and you keep coming back with walls that you will be able to hear a general conversation through - never mind keep out any bass frequencies at all...........

I continue to tell you the same thing over and over - I even give you emphirical proof - and you still insist (on believing) that you can acheive reasonable isolation with the construction you're showing.

So ok - believe what ytou wish - build it exactly like you've shown and it will be perfect for you - and you will live with it and love it and happiness will reign forever more......

But it will do so without my wasting my time...........

Good luck,

Rod

I do hear what your saying.
You are proposing I should use 5/8th fire rated drywall doubled on two walls and the ceiling, and 5/8th also on the back side of the accessible walls.

Your chart really doesn't compare exactly. I'm not trying isolate sound within my basement, I need to isolate sound down to an acceptable level in the neighbors basements. Unless any of those charts show the STC difference between one cement wall between apartments, vs one cement wall and an insulated floating room with thick drywall between apartments we can't really compare.

It isn't like I'm building a wood paneled wall with no insulation right on the exterior walls and existing joists.

I am considering double layering the ceiling and two walls, because I already have two layers on two of the walls I feel like I might as well do the rest. I'm just not sure if I can afford the extra 15 sheets of drywall plus the labor, and if I do will it make that big of a difference overall? That's the kicker

 

[yoyo]

Otherwise known as floating the floor.

.

from what i've seen, it's not. A floating floor has rubber mats below the studs of the wooden floor frame. hard to explain for me. The rubber isn't one whole piece, but small pieces between where the wood and the concrete touch. and that only occurs in various places, not everywhere

 

[undrgrnd studio]

In addition to this design, the ceiling would have double drywall. In your opinion, would this dramatically increase isolation vs the first design?

Does home cheapo sell fire putty pads? If I stuffed the electrical boxes with insulation, I mean STUFFED with a screwdriver until its rock hard and the used an insulated switch plate would that suffice, or is there no other way except using a putty pad?

If I double the sheetrock, where do I get this green glue stuff you guys are always talking about? Or should I just use construction glue. I'm going to finish insulating the ceiling and picking up all my sheet rock tonight.

 

[Rod Gervais]

In addition to this design, the ceiling would have double drywall. In your opinion, would this dramatically increase isolation vs the first design?

No - in order for there to be a dramatic increase the ceiling has to be decoupled as well -

also =- you increase LF isolation by using 2 x 6 @ 24" centers instead of 2 x 4 @ 16" centers.

Does home cheapo sell fire putty pads? If I stuffed the electrical boxes with insulation, I mean STUFFED with a screwdriver until its rock hard and the used an insulated switch plate would that suffice, or is there no other way except using a putty pad?

Boy - you are just a disaster waiting to happen - NO - do not ever = never ever - pack a electrical box - you will start a fire - not maybe - you WILL start a fire once the power is working -

you are even limited to the number of conductors you can run in a box - never mind pack it -

where in the world would you imagine the heat would dissapate to?

No you can't get putty packs at home despot - try checking with a local electrical supply house - they can set you up............. AND IT GOES ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE BOX - MAKE SURE TO FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS......

If I double the sheetrock, where do I get this green glue stuff you guys are always talking about? Or should I just use construction glue. I'm going to finish insulating the ceiling and picking up all my sheet rock tonight.

You get it from the green glue company......... try a google for green glue.

No you can't use construction glue - you will lower isolation if you glue the sheets together.

Green glue is NOT a glue - it is a constrained layer damping system - and I am too tiered to explain - go read about it (and the testing performed to prove it works) - on their website.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

You know, I'm asking relevant questions in the proper forum yet you are acting like a jerk. Why on earth do you bother answering genuine noob questions if you approach the question as if the questioner should be an acoustics engineer. Honestly, you really are acting like a complete ass right now, chill out a little. If you want to help then help, don't be a condescending jerk. I appreciate your knowledge, but you have to remember me and most other people posting questions about this stuff are probably doing for the FIRST time.

I have been researching sound isolation for the past couple weeks, not YEARS so I can get my basement done ASAP. I don't have the luxury of doing it when I have time, I have to do it NOW so I can move in next Saturday. I thought I had a pretty good layout, I also thought you were trying to be helpful. I guess not.

And BTW, I already mentioned it a few times, but the ceiling IS decoupled. I built a free standing room within a room. I am not touching the concrete walls or the above floor joists.


Here is a question for anybody else that wouldn't mind helping a noob. Would it benefit me at all given the layout I have, to add a second layer of drywall? I can't go back and reframe, and I don't have enough time to wait for Green Glue to be shipped to me. I am doing drywall tonight. I can buy 22 more sheets and double the walls, or I can leave it at one layer. If it would help enough to justify the extra $$, I certainly would do it.

 

[gullfo]

Rod being a certified fire safety engineer, as well as having many other excellent skills, tends to get worried/excited when noobies are building things that will likely get them and/or someone else killled... so I recommend taking Rod's advice with the urgency in which he gives it... like spending time to fix it today, instead of posting complaints...

how would you get out of the home office in the event of a fire? it looks like either the exit is through the studio, or the studio has to exit through the home office... check with your building inspector to ensure this is ok because in many cases all rooms need access to an egress point.

yes, you could add another layer of drywall IF the structure can support it. Green Glue is often used to achieve an equivilent level of isolation with two layers when you cannot add a third layer (because it exceeds the load that the structure can support. if you are not sure about it, call a licensed structural engineer to review and advise. your building inspector can also let you know if there's potentially a problem when they are in to inspect the framing and electrical work before sealing it up.)

one thing to note: the most isolation you can get with walls before the floor flanking takes over as the main source of sound coming through a given space is about 50db. will this be enough for your neighbors? it looks like you share interconnected basements and so the wall isolation is nice but at some point, the bass below 125hz is going to cut through the flooring and into the adjacent areas - and if the basements are sharing common walls or floors, its likely to get quite loud in the adjacent basements. you definitely want to check to see if the basement floors and walls are connected for not. if they're not, then you may be in better shape than if they are. then again, if you're not using live drums or big amps, this may not be an issue at all.

one thing jumps out - the squareness of the room. a square room will suffer badly from modes, esp since you're making it a high isolation room. plan on adding a lot of treatments if that is the case. one option is to move one of the walls to keep it from having any two dimensions the same or strongly correlated on harmonics (like octaves or 5ths) or ratios (1:1, 1:2, 1:4, etc). otherwise these modes easily end up in every track you record (where a mic is involved) and over time build up in the form of missing or uneven response for bass, drums, guitars, vocals, keyboard, etc.

on the window - you could add another heavy duty, double glazed exterior grade window on the inside of the new room to allow you to have some daylight and egress (which may be required by building code in your area - have your building inspector verify that - note: failure to comply with building codes can lead to very large fines, as well as being a safety problem, and your insurance may not cover you if you have built something without permits and inspections).

 

[undrgrnd studio]

I only have a minute before my next meeting so let me explain something quickly to answer your concern. My father has been working in construction, property management, and property supervision for the last 35 years. The structure is both safe and of high quality.

 

[Rod Gervais]

I only have a minute before my next meeting so let me explain something quickly to answer your concern. My father has been working in construction, property management, and property supervision for the last 35 years. The structure is both safe and of high quality.

Tell your father that you were thinking of packing an electrical box rock tight with insulation - her's close enough to slap you.........

 

[undrgrnd studio]

I was trying to explain to my father what you wrote about using a puddy pad around the box, and he wasn't understanding plus he didn't want to bother making more work for us. He thought I was telling him we should fill the box with puddy. He was trying to tell me we should just fill around the box with extra insulation when we put up the drywall. I didn't understand what he was saying and incorrectly stated that here. I already told you he did all the electrical anyway, it isn't like I'm out there banging away at things I don't understand like a monkey with a rock.

I basically acted as his apprentice during the framing, I have some experience but with the door openings and creating a ceiling I needed help with th details. I did the insulation myself, and again since I am not that familiar with drywalling I'm at his mercy. Now that I've done some with him I could do some myself but unless he's around I can't lug the 5/8th down the stairs alone. So I'm basically waiting until I can get some help or he has more time.

Yesterday I put up some nailers to drywall the bottom stair landing ceiling. I caulked the electrical box holes and caulked the framing sills around the perimeter of the room.