Sax Recording... really need some help here

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acleitao

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Hi guys,

This is my first post so will be a little longer (I'm sorry for that).

I'm trying to get a decent record of me playing sax for quite sometime now and didnt get nothing except frustrantion. My knowledge is very limited so, after reading all posts about sax recording at this forum I tried again and again I fail so I decide to ask for help.

My gear
Mics: A ribbon Samson VR88, a large diaphragm condenser MXL 770
Preamp: chinese Alto Alpha Mic Tube
Interface: Edirol Ua-25 ex
Monitors: Samson Studio dock 3i
DAW: Sonar 8 Producer

I use to connect the mic on the preamp and the preamp to the interface (using balanced xlr cables) for the tracks bellow I use the ribbon mic

Record Procedure
first I level the preamp to 0 db
After that I mess with the sensibility control of the interface and the track volume (on the daw) until I get -3 db on the daw meter

Positioning
Mic on foot from the horn and pointing to the middle of the instrument (diagonally to the keys and the bell) that is the better position I found.

the results you see on the raw track bellow (no volume, no punch)
After that I tried to process to see what happens and again... the results sucks!!!(as you can see bellow)

I know my equipment is not so good and my playing suck(even more than my recording skils) but I know that even the worst technician at this forum with no sax skills can get better results... so if you give me the way to solve my problem I will be very greatfull....

Thx in advance, and sorry for the bad playing, recording and english (LOL)
Look foward to hear from you
 

Attachments

Your playing lacks punch...that's the real problem.

AFA the volume in mixed track...just turn up the sax track....push up the fader...
...or lower the volume on the backing tracks if the final output is too hot.
 
You say you're getting -3db on the daw meter (WAY too hot.... your levels should be in the -10 to -18 range you can run into clipping if you get anywhere near 0db)

But your final output file is -18db.

Something in your settings (either on the track or the export) is not right.
Look at the gain on your plugins and make sure something isn't down or push them up higher.

Also, stop biting (yea I'm a sax player)
You're clamping down and not letting the horn breathe. Work on your technique and you'll get it.
What type and size of mouthpiece and reeds do you use?
 
You say you're getting -3db on the daw meter (WAY too hot.... your levels should be in the -10 to -18 range you can run into clipping if you get anywhere near 0db)
But your final output file is -18db.
Click to expand...

Let me know if I got what you said. I have to lower my preamp and audio interface volume until I get levels in the DAW in between -10 and -18db? Will the sax get loud enought?


Something in your settings (either on the track or the export) is not right.
Look at the gain on your plugins and make sure something isn't down or push them up higher.
Click to expand...
I review my settings... and try to push the gain up... but clipping... dont know what to do? any more tips about it?

Also, stop biting (yea I'm a sax player)
You're clamping down and not letting the horn breathe. Work on your technique and you'll get it.
What type and size of mouthpiece and reeds do you use?
Click to expand...

I know you from the STOW, yes I'm biting... but I'm trying to solve that... trying to relax my jaw...I discover that recently... but Tim... theres something that killing me from inside:
miroslav

Your playing lacks punch...that's the real problem.
Click to expand...
I this true? How can I solve that? that is caused for the biting problem? I know this is not the place but if you can help me I'll be greatfull

My setup is an alto yani,a 7 openning plastic mouthpiece (Ever-ton, you can see it on you tube is a national product) and vandoren java reed 2. But I have the same results with my Bob dukof D7 (fall on the ground last saturday... I cry for 2 days LOL) using vandoren java reeds 2 and 1 1/2.

thx for your help
 
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Your playing is "tight"..."constrained"...and I guess that is caused by the biting and that seems to be a beginner's problem...so work on it.

AFA the volume....
If you are not clipping going into the DAW...you're OK there. Yes, if you get too close to "0" on the digital interface, you could clip it...but that's not the problem here.
I know some people will argue about the "perfect" input level of your digital interface...but it's not THAT critical if you don't clip going in.

It's once you get it in the DAW...the rest of your music is TOO LOUD...so you're pushing up the sax track to compensate, and then you get clipping at the main outputs.
So...record the sax, get it into the DAW, and then adjust the level of the music to fit the sax (and vice versa)...then bring up the master stereo level in the DAW, but without making it clip.
Get it close to "0" but no RED.

Now...go turn up the level on you monitors until it's loud enough for your ears. :)

Too many newbs attempt to adjust their ROOM/MONITOR levels by pushing up individual track & mix levels.
WRONG!
Get your track levels and mix levels balanced...and the just TURN UP THE MONITORS if you want it LOUD! ;)
 
miroslav said:
Your playing is "tight"..."constrained"...and I guess that is caused by the biting and that seems to be a beginner's problem...so work on it.
Click to expand...
Are you a sax player too?the fact is that I'm trying to solve that... but my concern is about no punch I know that my sound is tight and most times muffled what I doesnt get is why my attack doesnt get power... even if I blow really hard... doesnt get the power that I hear in others playing...Hope you can understand what I wrote... my english is terrible

miroslav said:
AFA the volume....
If you are not clipping going into the DAW...you're OK there. Yes, if you get too close to "0" on the digital interface, you could clip it...but that's not the problem here.
I know some people will argue about the "perfect" input level of your digital interface...but it's not THAT critical if you don't clip going in.
Click to expand...
Let me see if I got it... thats can change my whole world LOL... I can get a little red lights on the preamp and the interface if I'm nothing clipping on the DAW? I that is true I have room to capture louder

miroslav said:
It's once you get it in the DAW...the rest of your music is TOO LOUD...so you're pushing up the sax track to compensate, and then you get clipping at the main outputs.
So...record the sax, get it into the DAW, and then adjust the level of the music to fit the sax (and vice versa)...then bring up the master stereo level in the DAW, but without making it clip.
Get it close to "0" but no RED.
Now...go turn up the level on you monitors until it's loud enough for your ears. :)
Click to expand...
Ok... the playback was really loud... I admit LOL. I was trying to get the louder output possible... but now I understand that doesnt work this way.
miroslav said:
Too many newbs attempt to adjust their ROOM/MONITOR levels by pushing up individual track & mix levels.
WRONG!
Get your track levels and mix levels balanced...and the just TURN UP THE MONITORS if you want it LOUD! ;)
Click to expand...
I dont do that LOL... no way... I use the monitor volume knob :D


Thx man... I'll try to relax my sound ... Just one last question... Do you think that if I put more air in it and record more far from the mic will do any better results?( I only have peace to record when my wife is not home... so I just can test this next monday LOL)
 
#1 1/2 or 2 reeds are pretty soft ...... that's a part of the problem.

I use a Runyon Spoiler metal mthpce .... opening is 13 ..... and I use #5 reeds. No lack of punch there! :D

That's not doable for you, of course. But I'd REALLY start working my way to a harder reed and, eventually, a more open mthpce.
Putting more air in it is absolutely gonna make a difference but with those soft reeds you can only do so much before it starts to close up on you.
Actually, I doubt very seriously that I could even PLAY a 2 outside of the bedroom without blowing it closed.

Now I've gigged nightly for the last 40 years so you're simply not gonna be able physically to play as open a mthpce or hard a reed as I use.
But the sound I'm hearing on these clips just immediately makes me go, "soft reed ....... student mthpce"

As for the recording levels ........ I tend to track at around -12 ........ but I avoid using compression and any hotter than that and I can get peaks that get too high.
 
Hi Lt. Bob,
Lt. Bob said:
But the sound I'm hearing on these clips just immediately makes me go, "soft reed ....... student mthpce"
Click to expand...

Oops ... I dont get it... did you suggesting that I have to get a harder reed or come back to my yamaha 4c with 1 1/2 reeds? I think with this mpc I can blow reeds up to 3... so can you clear up that for me?

BTW thx for helpping me out :D
 
I don't play sax...but I'm still good at it. ;)

Bob will help you on the sax questions better than I can.

AFA the volume thing....
1. Get the signal to the preamp fairly hot...but not where it's distorting. I'm talking about just the signal from the mic to the preamp. So you may need to adjust the Gain on the preamp, however if the preamp ONLY has a Gain knob but no separate Output Level knob...then the Gain/level at the preamp is directly tied to what you will be hitting your converters/digital interface....so you may need to find the right balance of hot signal at the preamp but NO RED at the converter/digital interface.
2. If the preamp has a separate Output Level knob...adust that AFTER you set the mic/Gain level so that the output is hitting the converters/digital interface inbetween - the high GREEN to medium Yellow range...about -18 dBFS to -10 dBFS, roughly.
3. Play and record the sax.
4. Adjust the rest of your music tracks and the sax track so that the level balance between them is how you like it....and then raise/lower the main stereo output of the mix so that the main output meters in the DAW are close to "0" but not hitting it on any peaks.
For max volume, -3 to -1 on those meters.
5. Once you have all that...adjust your speakers for whatever loudness you want in the room...but DON'T mess with the levels in the DAW anymore.

There is the level balance between tracks...that's your stereo mix...and there is the loudness in the room from the speakers that's got NOTHING to do with the DAW's internal level settings.
This is where people will screw up their gain structure...they keep pumping up the DAW levels of individual tracks or the main stereo out, to make it louder in the room. :rolleyes:
If you want loudness in the room...turn up the speakers.
 
acleitao said:
Hi Lt. Bob,
Oops ... I dont get it... did you suggesting that I have to get a harder reed or come back to my yamaha 4c with 1 1/2 reeds? I think with this mpc I can blow reeds up to 3... so can you clear up that for me.
Click to expand...

Lt. Bob said:
#1 1/2 or 2 reeds are pretty soft ...... that's a part of the problem.

I'd REALLY start working my way to a harder reed and, eventually, a more open mthpce.
Click to expand...
Harder the better ........ more open the better for a punchier, louder sound.
Nothing's gonna sound very punchy or strong with a 1 1/2 reed. That's beginner student soft.
And a 7 is a fairly closed lay.

I'm sure you're probably fairly newish to the sax or you wouldn't be using such soft reeds and you're not gonna just suddenly start using heavy ones.
But as you play more and are able to, I'd go for heavier reeds and a more open mthpce as I said.

I wouldn't use anything lighter than a 3 if you can possibly manage that and personally, I consider a 4 to be the softest I'll use and that's just for super quiet jazz gigs where I really need to play softly.
Normally I use 5's for mostly everything. Better tone ...... more control over the altissimo notes ...... more punch ..... pretty much better in every way other than being tough to play when you're starting out.
 
Yes my preamp doesnt get output gain setting... just Gain and Drive knobs... and the pad button (-10 db) I'm recording with that pad button on because if I turn it off I have to put gain and drive on 1 and my interface almost on zero....


Just one more question... Im using a balanced output from preamp into the balanced input of edirol ua 25... is this right? or I have to use line in (guitar input) on edirol? or it has no difference? just for you to know you inspire me to read about leveling on the sound on sound site and the forum...

thx for your help
 
Use balanced...not guitar.

What's the Drive knob for???

What brand/model preamp are we talking about?
 
Lt. Bob said:
hey ..... that's what we're here for ...... well that and the gratuitus sex!
:D
Click to expand...

gratuitus sex? where do I signup for it? LOL

did you saw my question about the reeds. mpc and stuff? I get confused with your post(again my english sucks sometimes... LOL)
 
Harder the better ........ more open the better for a punchier, louder sound.
Nothing's gonna sound very punchy or strong with a 1 1/2 reed. That's beginner student soft.
And a 7 is a fairly closed lay.

I'm sure you're probably fairly newish to the sax or you wouldn't be using such soft reeds and you're not gonna just suddenly start using heavy ones.
But as you play more and are able to, I'd go for heavier reeds and a more open mthpce as I said.

I wouldn't use anything lighter than a 3 if you can possibly manage that and personally, I consider a 4 to be the softest I'll use and that's just for super quiet jazz gigs where I really need to play softly.
Normally I use 5's for mostly everything. Better tone ...... more control over the altissimo notes ...... more punch ..... pretty much better in every way other than being tough to play when you're starting out.
Click to expand...

Sorry... didnt saw your answer... In fact I have being blowing for sometime now (14 year of blowing but not so much study... my fault I know) I'm pretty sure that with a 7 opening I can use at least a 3 reed... maybe 3 and a half......I'll buy one of each an see what happens...right know I change my reed for 2 1/2(the only available on my case) an trying to blow really harder...to see if my lungs will get a more harder reed
 
acleitao said:
to see if my lungs will get a more harder reed
Click to expand...
well ...... it's not your lungs that'll have a hard time. It's your lips. It doesn't take a lot more air to play a harder reed but it DOES take more lip strength and endurance.
For sure try that 3 at least and see what that does.
 
I can't help you with the sax playing stuff. My son plays tenor and my daughter alto, but I'm lucky if I can make either one of them "squawk". Your raw track doesn't sound noisy. That means, I think, that it's capturing the real sound. It's a little quiet, but not so much so that it couldn't be mixed with your background music. You'll just waste some headroom and have a very slightly noisier final result than you should. The basic idea you laid out at the very beginning - adjust preamp gain so your loudest notes are just tickling the 0dB light, then bring up the sensitivity control on the interface til the DAW shows just short of peaking (whatever you decide that is... In my book, as long as it doesn't ever go red it's all good). Your interface has a compressor built in. You MIGHT want to play with that but I don't think it's going to solve what you see as your problem. Another thing to consider is whether you are playing the same when you are recording as you were when you set the levels. Something about that little red light being on makes me play different. My son can play fine sitting down when we're just jamming, but put a mic in front of him and hit the record button and if he's not standing up it's going to be timid and soft. You gotta get your mind in the place where your really "playing" when you're recording.

Also, your preamp has a tube overdrive built in. Probably has nothing to do with anything. I don't really hear any overdrive in your track, but to be sure, I'd start with drive set at about 8:00 o'clock before adjusting your preamp gain. Then try turning the drive up and the gain down to keep your peaks at ~ 0dB on the Pre to hear what it does for you. Think of clean electric guitar versus distorted electric guitar. That's at the extreme of what it will do. Just a little bit in that direction from a pure clean signal supposedly sounds good even on other instruments. I can't speak to whether it really does or not. After that, its all about making your playing more dynamic/forceful, which I think you've gotten some great advice about in the posts above. The other answers above about turning the other tracks down as necessary and then turning your monitors up (outside the DAW) are the only other things I can think of...

Unfortunately, there isn't really any magic to it, at least not that I've found. I keep looking for it though!!!! I sometimes think when I listen to what some of the folks on these forums produce that there's a secret society of those who know the secret magic, and the rest of us who listen in awe. The more I work with it, though, the more I come to believe it's a matter of subtleties that only experience brings out, and experience only comes from doing... so read, read, read, but also do, do, do. That's my plan anyway! Good luck.

J
 
Hi jjjtttggg,

Thx for the answer...

There just one thing bitting me... why in the hell a mic preamp has an over drive function? LOL... just for you to know... if I remember this tracks was recorded with the both knobs at 12h and the sensitivity control on the interface to 7h (a really little opening of the knob) I did that because the guy who sold me the gear make me believe that this preamp is better than the interface preamps....

Another thing is, as I ask miroslav, am I plugin the gear the write way? because I'm using the balanced out from the preamp to intefaces balanced input. (again my knowlegde is limited but...) I dont have to plug the preamp in a line in jack? if I put it on balanced input will it use the preamps on interface too? what this can cause?...

Lt. Bob,

I'll try give it a try, my lips will burn but... If that's solve the problem I will solve two problems at the same time... better recordings and better sounding LOL (that what we call here killing two rabits with one shot dont know if you have that kind of expression in there)

Thx all of you...unfortunatelly gear hear in my country (Brazil) is too expensive so... I spend a lot of money on this gear (I know those of you in the USA will buy all my gear much more cheaper then I but here I spent something about U$$6000 on that) and I really greatfull for all your help in make me get the best of what I have!!!! :D
 
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