room's acoustic treatment

[lenovomi]

Hello,
going to renovate the flat, there is option to design everything including power-wall cables etc.

I am struggling where to start... could you guys recommend some threads.. the main concern is to design room with the best acoustics detail.

Anyone has any experience with software like CARA (http://www.rhintek.com/cara/cara21desc.php);
or REW;
or https://www.sarooma.de/en/apps/windows.html ?

I also found kind of service ie they can design something

https://vicoustic.com/project-request
but have no clue how good it might be.


happy for Any ideas where to start, dig etc ...

The room will include hifi listening, and other hw for 7.1 for movies etc.
hifi hw ~ rpp 10k euro (old components)
b&w 805
musical fidelity nu vista m3
auralic (streamer) + lin adaptor
DAC - Burson Conductor http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/burson10/1.html

7.1 hw ~ rpp 3k euro
marantz avr 6012
6x b&w m1 (1. serie)
1x center b&w htm7
sub BK XXLS 400 Subwoofer (http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XXLS400FF.htm)






Thanks!

 

[Papanate]

Do you have a lot of money? The things you can do that will have the most effect - Balanced and Isolate Your Power - Build Gobo for your Amp and Vocals - Minimal sound proofing is my suggestion - and Yes I used REW - I find it problematic and difficult to use - but it did the job and showed me my acoustic environment.

 

[lenovomi]

@Papanate depends... not sure what Gobo is, or min. soud proofing... what about CARA - to design it with that for beginning ... no clue.
I can create new circuit from the main breaker for audio only ... etc etc ;
- was thinking about that cable into the wall https://www.gigawatt.eu/produkt/in-wall-cable-gigawatt-lc-y-3x4-mk3/ but bit costy,
maybe some other model from Supra can be used.
- not sure if this one can somehow help https://www.gigawatt.eu/produkt/g-16a-power-grid-overcurrent-protection-switch/

 

[lenovomi]

also hifi 2.0 is drafted in the picture with a blue color
and 7.1 with pink

not sure if thats doable in terms of acoustic.

thx

 

[Papanate]

@Papanate depends... not sure what Gobo is, or min. soud proofing...

The idea is a sound block device that goes in front of what ever you have Mic'd up/

what about CARA - to design it with that for beginning ... no clue.

Cara is like REW - they have a CD to walk you through usage - but if you go down that rabbit hole - it's always big bucks.

I can create new circuit from the main breaker for audio only ... etc etc ;

That's a start - you could use a bunch of these as well - Tripp Lite IS250 Isolation Transformer - to isolate your power from the rest of the house.

- was thinking about that cable into the wall https://www.gigawatt.eu/produkt/in-wall-cable-gigawatt-lc-y-3x4-mk3/ but bit costy,

I'm not saying those don't work - but it's a lot of money the quality of gain you will get.

maybe some other model from Supra can be used.
- not sure if this one can somehow help https://www.gigawatt.eu/produkt/g-16a-power-grid-overcurrent-protection-switch/

That won't make much difference if you use the ISO boxes. For instance my music rooms use these after the circuit breaker - Furman P-2400 IT - I have three of them in my rooms.

 

[rob aylestone]

I looked at those web site links. They seem well versed in hifi, and as such, I don't believe very much that they say. I read a few words and the vocabulary worries me. They just don't talk recording language, but replay language.

 

[lenovomi]

@rob aylestone which web site links?

 

[jamesperrett]

From the plan I guess you are in Poland. US electrical wiring is very different to European wiring so you would be better off finding a local audio forum and asking about power there. Balanced or isolated power isn't normally used or needed in most parts of Europe.

 

[rob aylestone]

the ones in the first post?

I have to say this - the notion of spending a fortune on dedicated power supplies and crazy cable is hi-fi mentality. It's simply rubbish to satisfy the gullible.

There is physics, but they stretch it.

Look at somebody like the BBC - in the older, bigger studios, they have clean power, and separated grounds for audio ground and electrical safety ground. In other installations they dont. All they need is electrical distribution that is well designed - so low impedance paths and ways to prevent contractors or cleaners from using the studio power outlets for their power saws and vacuum cleaners.

The hifi brigade also recommend gold plated mains power connectors as this improves sound? Ever seen a proper recording studio that uses special mains wiring cable, or ridiculously priced mic cables? If a commercial studio wants to improve their sound, they will buy different mics and improve their acoustics - they don't waste it on crazy hifi products.

In the improved construction of the cable we used a new conductor with high conductance and a new isolator. Lossless flow of energy is made possible by the wires of the cable made up from three solid core conductors with 4mm2 cross-section each. Those are made from 99,997% pure copper (OFHC C10100), additionally subdued to an annealing process, which allows them to gain uniform structure and better conductance.

A few metres of this cable and half a mile of cheap stuff to the local substation is just daft. In addition, most electricians would just say 'what?' given that kind of cable to install.

Acoustic treatment improves sound if done properly. Better mics, speakers and processing can do the same. speaker, mic and power cables come way down the list for most studio people.

Mic cables, for example. The best ones are flexible, tough, easy to terminate and long lifespan. Some brands have soft, AND tough outers. Some cheap cable never lies flat and has poor copper content that doesn't solder very well. Some connectors are flimsy or fragile, or just awkward to put on. None of the cables in my collection sound better. They have many properties - resistance, capacitance and even the screening and crosstalk are variable - but there's a great video Dave Rat did - where he plugs a Shure mic into a cable to see if distance is a limit - and ends up using every cable in his warehouse to find a limit.

Just a quick trip around the links makes me laugh - sorry.

 

[ecc83]

"Balanced" mains power is used in such situations as medical facilities where very low noise is required but, such systems are kept separate from the rest of the supply and are only accessed by technical staff. A balanced mains supply is dangerous to a service tech that does not know about it.

Faffing about with mains power is rarely needed in UK. Poland might be different? Worse case might be an overhead supply.

Dave.

 

[lenovomi]

Hello,
well but as u said...

All they need is electrical distribution that is well designed - so low impedance paths and ways to prevent contractors or cleaners from using the studio power outlets for their power saws and vacuum cleaners.

its still better to have at least have separate circuit from the breaker, if we dont take about cables quality/types...

Apart of all mentioned/ said... i need to manage acoustics, thats why i shared room, and software as REW etc...

still no idea how to proceed here.


thanks

 

[ecc83]

On the subject of audio cables? In almost any "engineering" project cost is a factor. If there is a way to reduce costs without any impact on sound quality or reliability it is only sense to do so (might get you a better/more mic?)

So, think of balanced audio cables that 'don't move' say going to and from a desk and a patch bay? You can buy ~3mm OD two core for much less than 'posh' 6mm flexy mic cable and it is perfectly fine audio quality wise. In fact because it uses a 100%+ foil screen it is better than lapped or braided screens for RF shielding. Also has a single earth drain wire making connections much cleaner and faster.

Put in a good amount of shielded CAT6 cable. For digital gear of course but you still get 4 balanced pair for audio, plus a wide variety of signals, USB, VIDEO and others can go 50mtrs+ down CAT cable. Also run some basic 5A mains pairs of some sort so that someone can run a guitar cab well remote from the amp.

Dave.

 

[Monkey Allen]

You guys reckon an 8.8x9.1foot spare bedroom with timber floors is too small for a tracking and mixing room?

 

[rob aylestone]

Well no, many people can manage in spaces that size, but the trouble is the parallel surfaces make the untreated room boxy in sound. If you play pink noise in there and look at what you get it’s normal to see a rise in the bass response, often quite a big rise, but also a really peaky and trough filled response. The result would be mixes that are bass light, but the spikes caused by the room mean little clusters of pitches that sound loud and others that just vanish. Bass traps to fix that eat up room space, and treating the other problems mean adding and experimenting to reduce the effects of parallel surfaces. It could be cheaper to sacrifice a bit more space and put in a room within the room, which helps for isolation too, and make the 90 degree corners less, which breaks the parallel surfaces. Think about a six sided coffin sort of shape. Some bits very close to the room wall, others maybe eating into the room 150mm or so. You‘ll make the response less spikey and smaller bass traps should be more manageable a few angled drop downs from the ceiling and the room will sound much bigger and less of a problem.

 

[ecc83]

"Tracking and mixing" Depends what you are recording? Using a microphone is going to be dire as the boxy nature of the room is bound to intrude. That problem can be greatly improved by judiciously placed absorbent surfaces, the "Ole duvet Trick". But of course you can do much better and more 'professionally' with acoustic 'gobos' Home made or bought in. But, it ain't ever gonna sound like Abbey road #1!

"Mixing" is a rather more intractable problem. IMHO the best you can do is trap the bllx out of the room but still leaving room to move! Then buy the best monitors you can afford but SMALL ones with a limited bass response. You will have to concentrate on a clean, accurate mid range and good stereo imaging. That latter means absorbents at the "mirror" points either side of the monitors. The monitors also need to be very close, a 3 by 3 by 3 by 3 feet or less triangle, you and speakers.

Bass will need to be judged on good headphones. Some will say you can do the whole thing on cans but opinion is very hotly debated!

Dave.

 

[Monkey Allen]

Well no, many people can manage in spaces that size, but the trouble is the parallel surfaces make the untreated room boxy in sound. If you play pink noise in there and look at what you get it’s normal to see a rise in the bass response, often quite a big rise, but also a really peaky and trough filled response. The result would be mixes that are bass light, but the spikes caused by the room mean little clusters of pitches that sound loud and others that just vanish. Bass traps to fix that eat up room space, and treating the other problems mean adding and experimenting to reduce the effects of parallel surfaces. It could be cheaper to sacrifice a bit more space and put in a room within the room, which helps for isolation too, and make the 90 degree corners less, which breaks the parallel surfaces. Think about a six sided coffin sort of shape. Some bits very close to the room wall, others maybe eating into the room 150mm or so. You‘ll make the response less spikey and smaller bass traps should be more manageable a few angled drop downs from the ceiling and the room will sound much bigger and less of a problem.

Boxy sounding. You got that right. The absolute worst to record in there is acoustic guitar. I think I can get passable home studio recordings of vocals, amps and little bits of percussion...but acoustic guitar is diabolical in there. In terms of space, yeah I've sacrificed quite a bit with my DIY 7" trapping. Though I have serious doubts about how much bass they are trapping. The parallel surfaces you talk about is interesting because I essentially have the room symmetrical. Maybe I can do stuff to shake up that symmetrical character. Haha...the 6 sided coffin. I had to chuckle there Rob, because that's almost what I have right now and in many ways it is the room of death for decent recordings. I had ceiling traps up at one point but it made the room downright oppressive. I had to take them out for my sanity. I'll try to post a picture of what it roughly looks like.

"Tracking and mixing" Depends what you are recording? Using a microphone is going to be dire as the boxy nature of the room is bound to intrude. That problem can be greatly improved by judiciously placed absorbent surfaces, the "Ole duvet Trick". But of course you can do much better and more 'professionally' with acoustic 'gobos' Home made or bought in. But, it ain't ever gonna sound like Abbey road #1!

"Mixing" is a rather more intractable problem. IMHO the best you can do is trap the bllx out of the room but still leaving room to move! Then buy the best monitors you can afford but SMALL ones with a limited bass response. You will have to concentrate on a clean, accurate mid range and good stereo imaging. That latter means absorbents at the "mirror" points either side of the monitors. The monitors also need to be very close, a 3 by 3 by 3 by 3 feet or less triangle, you and speakers.

Bass will need to be judged on good headphones. Some will say you can do the whole thing on cans but opinion is very hotly debated!

Dave.

Yes, Dave, the dream was to house both in one space...tracking and mixing. I track vocals, amps, acoustic guitar and all kinds of hand percussion. That's the extent of it. Like I mentioned just before, the acoustic guitar is THE most problematic. Which is such a bitter pill since my dream is to record great sounding acoustic guitar. I want it as the kind of chord backing for lots of my songs. But, and you're bang on, the boxy nature of the room intrudes. I have built quite a few gobos (of varying quality) and probably get slightly better results when I make myself a little 3 corner (often with a roof) gobo setup...but still the acoustic guitar results are very disappointing.

As for the mixing...I'm so slow on the old uptake and slow to cotton onto things...I always thought mixing was why my songs weren't any good sonically. It never occurred to me that tracking was playing a massive roll in how poorly things turned out. Cut to the chase...recently I bought Steven Slate VSX so that I could mix accurately. Well what it actually did was show me, pretty emphatically, that it's my recorded tracks that are a huge problem. I went back over some of my stuff and the acoustic guitar tracks are unsalvageable. Other tracks are horrendous in the cold light of the VSX monitoring system. Now given that VSX is reasonably accurate...I think this is where my problem is. It's the actual recordings. You can't DIY an 8x9ft room with no real rhyme or reason...no real idea what you're doing, no meaningful measurements etc and expect to make great or even good recordings in there. Like you said, it'll never be Abbey Road and it's likely to never even be Abbey Road's broom closet. It's just a horrible, horrible boxy room of sonic death.

I can attempt to take the recordings out of that 8x8ft room and into some kind of gobo setup in the front living area of my house. But to cut that story short...that just involves a new set of issues and problems. I tell you fellas, it's taken me a long time to get to this point after working overseas for about 15 years and not being able to set up a studio...to finally get back to my country, get the home, have the gear, have the time...but be kyboshed by poor space. I love my home and where I live...but it's a small house and options are very limited. It's a weird situation to be in because this music thing was only ever meant to be a hobby and the idea of selling up and attempting to buy a more suitable home on the basis of its versatility as a potential studio just seems ridiculous. And it is only a hobby, but doing it under these conditions seems insane.

Such is life. I guess.

 

[ecc83]

"into some kind of gobo setup in the front living area of my house. But to cut that story short...that just involves a new set of issues and problems." What kind of issues and problems? How big is the living area? My son has done some pretty decent acoustic guitar recording, we think any way, in a room 12.5x12x 8.5 feet...But yes, that space in the picture is REALLY tight!

I shall try to find one of his tracks.

Dave.

 

[Monkey Allen]

Hey Dave, the bigger living room space is a pretty open floor plan with general dimensions of 14.7x15.7ft and a ceiling around 7.8ft. So it's happily much bigger. I have tried recording acoustic guitars out there and vocals too. But not with much tenacity. I tried a couple of times without much in the way of a gobo setup and both the acoustic and the vocals just sounded a dead ringer for 'recorded in a living room'. They were pretty ugly. You could hear the room in a bad way. Not flattering. But...

These days I have lots more gobos and could pretty much make a little 3 walled room or space even with a sideways gobo as a roof. So maybe...just maybe I'll get better recordings that way. The bigger area might eliminate a lot of the relentless boxiness of my little 8x9ft room since the space is bigger.

The other thing about recording out in the living room is that my gear is all locked in to racks and patchbays which are extremely hard to easily remove and take away etc. But...what I could do is setup a kind of mobile rig specifically for recording out in the bigger room. So every time I need to record, especially acoustic guitars, I could wheel out a rig and get it done like that.

If you find one of those acoustic tracks from your son, I'd like to hear it.

 

[mjbphotos]

In the big room, set up on one short wall towards one corner, microphone 3 or 4 feet out - enough room to put a chair down and sit and play the guitar, facing out diagonally to the far corner. Put gobos, a duvet/whatever behind you. If you have enough gobos, place a couple in a V in front of you, the mic/s between them and you, of course.
Your existing space is just not going to be great for acoustic guitar.

 

[Monkey Allen]

In the big room, set up on one short wall towards one corner, microphone 3 or 4 feet out - enough room to put a chair down and sit and play the guitar, facing out diagonally to the far corner. Put gobos, a duvet/whatever behind you. If you have enough gobos, place a couple in a V in front of you, the mic/s between them and you, of course.
Your existing space is just not going to be great for acoustic guitar.

Sounds like a plan. Will give it a go. Thanks