RMGI SM911 shedding

[Beck]

Some specs:

RMGI ½” 911 is 12.7mm wide. AMPEX 456 is 12.6mm. Interestingly, the 2” 911 at 50.8mm is a bit smaller than 456, which is 50.9mm, so the problems with 2” RMGI couldn’t be explained this way.

The question is, could this really make such a difference? Is either one “Right” or do they both fall within a standard range of +/-?

If as it is claimed, AMPEX ½” has a smaller width to allow for “sloppy slitting” wouldn’t it wear a larger path anyway because of that slitting inconsistency?

Some people seem to be pointing a finger at AMPEX/Quantegy as the reason for RMGI tape shedding. That doesn’t seem quite right.

EMTEC wasn’t discontinued for very long before RMGI came on the scene. The older brands of 911 share the same width spec, so I would think this would have been an issue before now.

Some more trivia for the spec hungry… Maxell 35-90/35-90B ¼” has a width of 6.25mm compared with everyone else at 6.3mm. I don’t think these tiny variations can make or break a good tape.

RMGI is shedding because they screwed up somewhere. Any other conclusion would mean RMGI is unsuitable for any machine broken-in with AMPEX/Quantegy, which is pretty much saying the problem can only be fixed by going back in time and NOT using 456. Not to mention… RMGI replacing the “defective” tape would be an exercise in futility.

 

[cjacek]

Can't argue with the above, Tim. Good point.

It's good that we're throwing all the possibilities out-there, potentially getting to the reason of the shed.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

Not that I want to be a shit disturber or anything but where is our newer member "splicit" in all this mess?

They seem more then happy to advertise their products here, for free!, when the weather is clear but seem to be MIA as soon as a few drops of rain hit the field?

What's up with that?

Cheers!

 

[cjacek]

Jeff, while I think the splicit people seem nice enough, you have a good point. Also, it doesn't help that their eBay adverts, for RMGI tape, still leave much to be desired, despite my continued (but half ignored) advice about getting their auction ad copy and especially the subject titles revised, which currently hurt their sales.

 

[jpmorris]

Rotating the guides helped slightly. It's still shedding, although not as much and mostly at the edges. I'm still not sure what to make of this in view of the fact that 456 didn't do this. I can't get SM468 - SM900 is the wrong stuff, but I might get some anyway to see if it behaves the same.

 

[Beck]

I'm hearing more reports of SM900 shedding too, but I've never used it. My older BASF and EMTEC SM911 and SM468 don't shed. Even my really old AGFA PEM 468 is good. Well, everything sheds a little… just the nature of tape, but it takes a lot of passes before the tape path fails the white-glove test.

 

[Ding Dong]

I'm hearing more reports of SM900 shedding too, but I've never used it. My older BASF and EMTEC SM911 and SM468 don't shed. Even my really old AGFA PEM 468 is good. Well, everything sheds a little… just the nature of tape, but it takes a lot of passes before the tape path fails the white-glove test.

I just did a recording on some brand new sm900 and it shedded like crazy. my lifters were a bit worn, so i thought that was the problem, but i covered them with plastic and the shedding continued. it could be that some of the guides are worn too, i guess. Im hoping it was just a bad batch of tape and not a dying machine.

I had to clean the heads in between every song during recording and mixing, as well as deal with sudden volume drops in the middle of the songs. the result however, is probobly the most "analog sounding" thing ive ever heard, so i guess i did a good job...

i'd like to post a couple wavs and get some feedback, but im not sure how to get the webspace.

by the way, im wondering if anyone had tried the newest batch of SM911 that just came out. perhaps someone who had shed problems with the last batch- is there an improvement?

 

[Splicit]

Hmmm....well, what would you guys like us to do? We don't make the tape. We just sell it. Im not a real technical person but Im sure willing to talk to those at RMGI if you like and find out what I can for you. I havent been "hiding" or avoiding anyone. Im a products person more than technical. And I did do some re-wording of the ebay ads as Daniel suggested. Ive worked hard to build this little business and compete with guys like Kurt at USR by keeping my prices to the bone and standing behind everything we sell. If you guys have questions who want me to find answers to...just let me know. Im here in the "background" on your behalf.


Teresa
Splicit Reel Audio Products

 

[Splicit]

Rmgi

To date we have had (1) problem with RMGI 911. The main sales rep that we get product from quickly replaced it for the customer. They gave us NO expalination of what what the problem was. If you want to know the truth??? As an RMGI distributor it has been a totally frustrating experience. Not dealing with the product or the public. Dealing with the company!! They charge us almost retail prices and expect us to make a profit. To top that off..there is virtually no distributor support in place. The main sales reps in the U.S. are the only ones making any money. We receive NOTHING in the way of product literature or samples or support from them. Try to stay in business and sell products from a company that does that to you.
Then top that off with everyone constantly complaining about the prices you're charging. I have mentioned your complaints about pricing to the "powers that be". Do you think I received answer? Of course not!!
They don't want to hear it. So......no, I dont just hang around and advertise on hear for free when the weather's clear. I've been through some pretty rough rain storms too. We continue to represent your views and work with your interests in mind. Afterall, It's YOU people that make the business end of this medium survive.

Teresa
Splicit Reel Audio Products

 

[Flangerhans]

Hey, T, you are appreciated. What you're dealing with in RMG is the classic corporate business model, where the actual end user is the LAST concern. I've actually fired off a missive to them asking for a little leeway for smaller retailers, with no acknowledgement whatsoever. They still haven't realized that the smaller user is going to be the future of their market, nor that quality alone will not sell a product. I still remain optimistic about analog, in both professional and home studio use, but the big picture demands new machines for growth and aggressive marketing techniques as well. The digital folks are helping by putting out stuff that by it's very existance shows that there is a demand for the analog sound, but the tape and tape machine people are generally ignoring a huge opportunity. Hopefully there will be some smart operator somewhere that realizes that there is a dollar to be made here, but that clever fellow is not working for Otari, Studer, or RMGI. Anyway:
Splicit,
Don't be discouraged..
The market ain't so hard to understand

 

[FALKEN]

I don't think anyone's missing out on any opportunities. This forum is loaded to the max with people who use brands like behringer, nady, studio projects, m-audio, squier, etc, etc etc... I would say that less than one percent here have ever invested more than a grand in any single piece of recording gear (instruments aside), I doubt there would be much of a home recording market for new machines. Tape really isn't that expensive either, when you look at it from a hobbyist perspective. Hell I probably spend more on guitar strings over the course of a year than on tape. Tape is re-useable, and I probably record fewer than 10 tapes a year that I actually want to keep. I just dont get all of the complaining. If anything, I would be complaining that with quantegy gone, we now have a single supplier of tape with a formulation that is unproven to stand the test of time.

 

[Beck]

A very enlightening post by Teresa, albeit discouraging.

As I’ve said previously, if RMGI chooses to follow the, “Way of the Asshole” as their business model like Quantegy did, we can start saying our goodbyes to them now.

A good reverse marketing campaign on our part couldn’t hurt. Mail them sympathy cards, or send them via americangreetings.com online.

 

[Flangerhans]

I have to disagree with you, Falken. Just take a look at what the ProFools are paying for their "analog suite." For that matter, consider how many compressors are sold that guarantee "warm" sound, or pres that do the same. Basically, these products are admitting that something was lost when digital became the norm, and the market exists for the good sound available through tape. All that is necessary for a comeback of magnetic recording media on a large scale is some wise company to produce a great deck and market it with some savvy. Imagine going to NAMM and seeing a demo of a 1" eight track with a chip holding some plug-ins at a reasonable cost, going up against the digital stuff...
I admit, the prices for decks right now are ridiculous. They are aimed at the boutique market, the companies involved seem to have no interest in marketing them, and they are no competition at all for the digital guys. I still maintain, however, that it doesn't have to be like this, that decks don't have to cost over a thousand dollars with design geared towards mass production.

 

[cjacek]

All that is necessary for a comeback of magnetic recording media on a large scale is some wise company to produce a great deck and market it with some savvy.

While I agree that price point is the decider, in many a time, one cannot overlook real smart marketing. I think it is key. This also goes for the current RMGI tapes, not only from the manufacturer's side but from the distributors'.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

To date we have had (1) problem with RMGI 911. The main sales rep that we get product from quickly replaced it for the customer. They gave us NO expalination of what what the problem was. If you want to know the truth??? As an RMGI distributor it has been a totally frustrating experience. Not dealing with the product or the public. Dealing with the company!! They charge us almost retail prices and expect us to make a profit. To top that off..there is virtually no distributor support in place. The main sales reps in the U.S. are the only ones making any money. We receive NOTHING in the way of product literature or samples or support from them. Try to stay in business and sell products from a company that does that to you.
Then top that off with everyone constantly complaining about the prices you're charging. I have mentioned your complaints about pricing to the "powers that be". Do you think I received answer? Of course not!!
They don't want to hear it. So......no, I dont just hang around and advertise on hear for free when the weather's clear. I've been through some pretty rough rain storms too. We continue to represent your views and work with your interests in mind. After all, It's YOU people that make the business end of this medium survive.

Teresa
Splicit Reel Audio Products

Thanks for chiming in on this topic, Teresa.

I'm a retailer as well, selling custom home theater gear though a bricks a mortar store that costs us over $12,000 dollar a month in operating expenses before we see a penny in net profit. Most of the larger pieces of gear that we sell, deliver, install and educate our clients to operate it is done at lower margins then what you work at selling out of a warehouse or your garage, on the Internet.

We all have tough rows to hoe in business.

I guess the point I want to make is that when my customers come to me with concerns about product reliability, I'll open up my repair ledgers to them to see exactly what stuff is failing and why it's failing. Basically, I want satisfied customers and the best way I know how to do that is recommend products to them that are right for their needs and budget and absolutely, what products that will be the most reliable for them because happy customers to us means repeat and referral sales and we don't advertise anywhere!

So, when an issue like sticky shed comes up on a new product like the one you are selling, I'd think that you would want to be up front, without a prod from schmucks like me, and say something like; Hey guys, we've sold "x" amount of this tape and haven't had a single incident of issues like you're talking about here" or, "we've had a return or two on a similar issue but the distributor is on top of the situation and will offer exchanges without a hassle so in the unlikely event you run into trouble, we're here for you 100%".

At least that's how I would approach it but, what the hell do I know.

Cheers!

 

[FALKEN]

I have to disagree with you, Falken. Just take a look at what the ProFools are paying for their "analog suite." For that matter, consider how many compressors are sold that guarantee "warm" sound, or pres that do the same. Basically, these products are admitting that something was lost when digital became the norm, and the market exists for the good sound available through tape. All that is necessary for a comeback of magnetic recording media on a large scale is some wise company to produce a great deck and market it with some savvy. Imagine going to NAMM and seeing a demo of a 1" eight track with a chip holding some plug-ins at a reasonable cost, going up against the digital stuff...
I admit, the prices for decks right now are ridiculous. They are aimed at the boutique market, the companies involved seem to have no interest in marketing them, and they are no competition at all for the digital guys. I still maintain, however, that it doesn't have to be like this, that decks don't have to cost over a thousand dollars with design geared towards mass production.

Hmm, I'm not sure we are saying entirely different things. the difference is that you are thinking a 1" 8-track could be made for under a grand. I just don't think this is possible.

 

[Flangerhans]

I can't categorically state that a quality deck can be made for under 1000 dollars at all, I haven't a manufacturing background. What I can say is that manufactured goods are as inexpensive as they have ever been, thanks in part to a glut forced on us by China. It seems possible that if a microphone that was formerly available for several thousand dollars can be approximated by overseas companies for less than a hundred, that an 8 track one inch machine might well be in the same boat. Should some bright fellow decide to import such an item, I can assure you that my own qualms about buying Chinese goods would melt about as fast as they did when I purchased my Squier. I'm pretty sure that enough tape lovers would feel the same to assure a lively customer base, and such an expansion of analog users would also pep up the tape market. RMGI would be giving their business a good boost by encouraging such imports, but I doubt that this is a likelihood. Otari, Studer, Tascam, etc., could also endorse such a plan in the same way Gibson or Fender offers Epiphone and Squier respectively, once again though not something I'd bet on. Perhaps Digidesign?

 

[cjacek]

Hmmm....well, what would you guys like us to do?

Well, first, if I may once again chime in ...... You have to make it much easier for people browsing eBay to find your tapes. As it stands, it's a hit and miss affair. Whatever format you decide on MAKE SURE to include the actual tape name, in the title, such as SM911 or whatever it is. Another thing you need to place, in the title, is RMGI EMTEC BASF QUANTEGY NEW

Here's how I would do it and this goes for any tape you have, just change width of tape info, feet -- all in the title. There is no need, however, to put whether the tape is a pancake or on a metal reel or .... Most important is to have people find you. They can get all the other details in the body of your message.

RMGI SM911 1/2" X 2500' REEL EMTEC BASF QUANTEGY NEW​

Under the title place the following:

AUTHORIZED DEALER. FAST SHIPPING WORLDWIDE.​

In the body of your message fill them in on details like what they're getting, pancake, metal / plastic reel etc etc etc .... But DO add the following (always):

Product direct replacement for Quantegy 456.​

..... or whatever tape it is.

Other helpful hints: It's not neccessary to bold the title but I do highly recommend placing a THUMB pict of the RMGI tapes to the left of the title (displays a small picture in search results). If RMGI allows, the attached example is perfect (but I would find a higher resolution one perhaps a nice scan from one of their brochures??). Picts are critical and can degrade sales so make sure you either use stock ones or make an outstanding one.

 

[Beck]

On the other hand one could make a good case to forget eBay and pass the savings in listing fees and final value fees on to buyers… for the pricey ½” tapes and wider anyway. Add to that paypal, which is owned by eBay, and I don’t know how some regular sellers get by with all the fees. You can direct buyers to your web site in other listings maybe.

If the margins are as slim as we’re hearing, eBay fees are a pretty good kick in the pants for something like this.

The other thing about eBay is people expect better prices than they would find at a regular web store or music store. The psychology of it… “The worlds biggest garage sale” and all that, ya know. They’ll choose the old one-pass AMPEX 456 every time because they’re looking for a deal.

As far as the website, splicit.com comes up in the first page of results with a google for RMGI or EMTEC SM911, but none of the following brings a hit:

RMGI 911
BASF SM911 or 911
EMTEC 911
RMG International 911

A lot of people still have not heard of RMGI. Many people that have been recording for a long time don’t call it SM911, but just 911 or SM 911 (space between SM and 911). Most have EMTEC in their heads as the “New Company” because they bought BASF 911 for years. Heck, I know people who barely heard of Quantegy before it was gone. They’re still looking for AMPEX.

That’s understandable though because you have a good number of people bringing analog back into the recording process after being out of the loop for years. They know what they’re doing, but haven’t kept up with all the name changes. And geeez… AGFA/BASF/EMTEC/RMGI… can anyone keep up? It might be called something else tomorrow.

The most dramatic thing I can think of is to offer tape for considerably less than U.S. Recording Media. They were always the most expensive when they were selling Quantegy, before and after the tape crisis. People just expect to find it cheaper somewhere else. They are the “List Price” people. I only bought stuff there if it was on sale.

So personally, I just keep waiting for the prices to come down after more people start carrying it and there’s just more of it out there. U.S. Recording Media will keep the same high price (as will Trycho an even higher price). If we’re going to be paying USRM prices anyway a lot of people are going to continue to look for one-pass deals and New-old-stock for some time to come. They’ll often regret it because the old tape is crapy, but it’s still a sale lost to vendors offering new tape.

 

[cjacek]

Yup, all good points, Tim.

If one wishes to do the eBay thing then there's lots of ways to make your items stand out or at least get your product found and noticed but there's no denying that when you add up ebay listing + paypal fees.... well.... it's better perhaps to pass on the savings to the customer...

Yes, I def believe splicit could use a revamping of their webpage to include the popular variations of the tape names like you have suggested above. That would generate more hits. It would also not hurt to educate the buyer on sticky shed, even referring to this site and Beck's write ups on it. Tim, how's the website going btw ?

I was even thinking that just doing an overhaul of the splicit.com page, as per the above, along with its representatives regularly making a visit here and joining in discussions, would be a positive thing.

So yeah, I'm not really sure what else I wanted to say but your post pretty much nailed it, Tim.