Reverse reverb to help sync overdubs?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rgonzale
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rgonzale

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I've been trying to find the silver bullet to help me record the first few tracks of an overdub-based song with voice, guitar, bass, and a little percussion. The problem (see my recent "bleed" thread) is that I don't want to use a metronome/click track because I want the tempo to change as it does when I play guitar and sing at the same time. So the best approach seems to be to record a "scratch" track with voice and guitar and then try to overdub final voice and guitar takes separately.

The problem is that the scratch track doesn't include enough cues to anticipate when to come in. EG if the voice leads a verse (comes in before the guitar) then I can't properly overdub a final vocal take because by the time I hear the voice on the scratch track it's too late to come in.

Has anyone tried using reverse reverb or a short predelay on the scratch track to help anticipate overdubs!? For example, I can reverse the scratch track in an audio editor, apply a 100ms delay or a short reverb, and reverse it again. Then when I go to overdub the final vocal the predelay will give me a cue so I can sync to the timing of the scratch track. In my thinking, this helps take the place of the visual cues that live musicians use to sync to each other.

I'm going to try this tomorrow AM...
 
this sounds like a neat idea. I don't know if it will help, but I might want to try it myself to get some weird effects.
 
This sounds like one of those horrible time wasting exercises in futility that bands will attempt when I'm recording them because they are too lazy to play in tempo.

Personally: bad idea--get a click track or learn to play it in a single take.

I've literally wasted HOURS of my life (at least I was paid by the mook that had the idea) attempting dumb stunts like this while recording. Doesn't work. Nope.

And if it *DID* you will have wasted enough time editing and goofing around with the audio to have just played it correctly.
 
I usually just watch the waveform when I have to do this.
When you see the waveform start... Start.

Or, if it's in the middle of a waveform...
You can usually see when a new voice/instrument comes in...
 
It does seem like a waste of time. If you listen to something enough, even if its out of time, you generally get a sense of it's timeing. If that made sense?
 
Perfect sense,
Usually I only need to watch the waveform a couple times
Before I just know when to start.
 
rgonzale said:
...I want the tempo to change as it does when I play guitar and sing at the same time. So the best approach seems to be to record a "scratch" track with voice and guitar and then try to overdub final voice and guitar takes separately.

The problem is that the scratch track doesn't include enough cues to anticipate when to come in. EG if the voice leads a verse (comes in before the guitar) then I can't properly overdub a final vocal take because by the time I hear the voice on the scratch track it's too late to come in.
Click to expand...

Is the song THAT dynamic that it changes so drastically every time you play it? :confused:
I suppose if there's a clean break in the song, nothing should prevent you from 'tapping' on the guitar during the scratch tracks to give you a cue when to start singing again....

You might want to try playing along with a steady click track at least once... Who knows, you might find that the song improves with a constant tempo... :rolleyes:
 
You can always change the tempo of the click in the song when you change tempo. Just figure out where it is and make a tempo map. Your click will change if you program the tempo changes into your recording software.
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
...to have just played it correctly.
Click to expand...
This is the first thing that popped into my head too. Learn the performance and perform it the way you intend.

On the other hand if you were doing this live with a full band how would the musicians communicate complicated cues to each other - either they're all connected thru some spiritual wavelength on the ether or they're watching for body language or listening. Doing solo stuff in a multitracker eliminates all that organic stuff - yes? The only thing you can do is listen. I guess you can watch timers too...

If it's a complicated piece with timing changes and many different sections the you might need some kind of cue in the monitors from an available scratch track (a cue track in other words). Otherwise if it's a plain ole rock/pop format it would be better just to learn how to perform it, that skill will serve you better down the road.

2cents
 
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I rather like going with the ether idea. Live, not for recording.
 
Take a spare track and do count ins on the spots where it's needed. If you're working in software where you can drag the "1, 2, 3, 4" into perfect alignment for queing, it's real easy.
 
Hmmm, I'm still going to give it a try. Yes, I can play the part easily, it's a 3 chord song and that isn't the issue. But the tempo comes to a dead stop at parts. Mapping the tempo changes would be very tedious and wouldn't capture the organic feel IMO. Try mapping the tempo in an old Howling Wolf recording or William Ackerman and you'll see what I mean. I thought about watching the waveform (in fact I wrote a little VST plugin which draws an animated metronome for this purpose) but we're talking millisecond timing here...
 
...and capturing both in a nice sounding way won't do? In other words, a little bleed is too restricting?
Wayne

Never mind, I saw the other thread -pick noise panned away from the guitar(?)
 
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You said that the song contains DRUMS and BASS as well.

If you can't get the guitar to sync up to itself, how do you propose to get these elements to time correctly????

Have a click track laid down. Then lay down the drums and bass, then lay down your guitar, and finally do the vocal. That's how it's generally done.

*OR*

Isolate the instruments in different rooms and play the song together as a band. That can keep the live feel.

You *CAN* get a full guitar sound from a single track if you nail a good tone from the get go. It's been done before.
 
OK - I see what you're doing better now (hehe damn internet assumptions :D )...

Trying to peice this together from what you've said:
What it is I'm doing:
...overdub-based song with voice, guitar, bass, and a little percussion.
...I want the tempo to change as it does when I play guitar and sing at the same time.
...record a "scratch" track with voice and guitar and then try to overdub final voice and guitar takes separately.

Problem:
...the scratch track doesn't include enough cues to anticipate when to come in.
...if the voice leads a verse (comes in before the guitar) then I can't properly overdub a final vocal take because by the time I hear the voice on the scratch track it's too late to come in.
...Try mapping the tempo in an old Howling Wolf recording or William Ackerman and you'll see what I mean.
Click to expand...
Now I see where you're comin from, hehe excuse me makin a log of what you said - it's how I think (poor me!).

If I was doin it myself I would change the way I sing on the scratch track and give a cue right befor you sing. You know how you can break down straight time into 1 - e - & - a, 2 - e - & - a, 3 - e - & - a, etc. and 12/8 time into 1 - & - a, 2 - & - a, 3 - & - a, etc.?

Well assuming you've got a 12/8 blues I'd just pop a verbal count in front of the every vocal snippet or verse where you want time to drift.

So you might have a vocal something like this (in blues 12/8 time):
"Saturday night, feelin good....[time dissolves or stops here]......Sunday mornin I do what I should"

If you want to be able to overdub this or have other instruments know when to come in you've gotta have pickup notes on something - if the vocal leads in like you say then put some there like this:
"Saturday night, feelin good....[time dissolves or stops here]...[1 - & - a][2 -]Sunday mornin I do what I should"

Back to the performance aspect - count it back in on your scratch track to the pulse and tempo of the song as you intend it. Seems like you or someone is going to play all the overdubb'd instruments (as opposed to a machine whom would need a midi clock or something) so all you've got to do is list for the count ins and pickup cues.
 
Think of adding a third track onto that you record you tempo taping foot. Should be enough to get the tempo right for the overdub. It might be enough to count in at the difficult points at the scratch track (because the problemsy should be there when there is nothing recorded...)

aXl
 
I've often done what Track Rat suggested.
I simply add a cue track, and do count ins ( sometimes worded notes on what to remember etc) and simply drag them around till they are in the perfect spot.

Tom (T-Mix)
 
tmix said:
I've often done what Track Rat suggested.
I simply add a cue track, and do count ins ( sometimes worded notes on what to remember etc) and simply drag them around till they are in the perfect spot.

Tom (T-Mix)
Click to expand...
EXactly. :D
 
this whole thing sounds like a huge waste of time...if you listen enough to your own song you should know where everything is.
 
Well apparently it's not just me who thinks this isn't a waste of time... thanks a lot for the helpful replies track rat, tmix, kylen, and the rest of you. I guess that for some kinds of music this is truly unneccessary but for other kinds it is useful.

I did the reverse reverb thing, but you still have to edit the scratch vocal track because the reverse reverb is kind of distracting on most of it. So maybe adding count-in is the most sensible thing and looks like it will do the trick.
 
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