Recording with SM57 and Behringer UMC204HD

[CMolena]

Hey guys.

I am currently with a really simple recording setup, just a 57 and a BehringerUMC204HD. I like the simplicity of it, but lately I'm super pissed because everything I try to record has like a background noise to it. Do you guys know if it is because of the 57? If I buy a SDC or a LDC mic would it help?

Here is a track I recorded with it...

Thanks for the help.

 

[Bstrom]

Learn gain staging with your DAW (you are using a DAW, right?) for one thing, but you're at the start of a long road that requires hours of reading.

Your interface or connectivity to it is likely the problem too but that's another matter.

 

[CMolena]

I've been recording for like 10 years dude. I am just posting this to see if I can get some help. I am using a DAW. The sm57 requires a lot of gain. I thought that the noise was somehow related to the fact that I need to turn the gain almost all the way up on the interface. So if you could take a listen and try to help it would mean a lot. Thanks!

 

[Bstrom]

I've been recording for like 10 years dude. I am just posting this to see if I can get some help. I am using a DAW. The sm57 requires a lot of gain. I thought that the noise was somehow related to the fact that I need to turn the gain almost all the way up on the interface. So if you could take a listen and try to help it would mean a lot. Thanks!

The preamp gain is limited on all interfaces - some provide more than others - and at diffeent level of clarity without distortion.

If you need to crank the gain up too high, noise from the interface begins to show up. What do your meter LEDs on the interface and/or DAW show - do they go red before you get enough gain? If gain is working as it should you may not have enough headphone or speaker output to hear it well. I simplify it, but this is just the basic approach to any recording setup.

 

[rob aylestone]

In the 70's my first mic was a 57. Plugged into my reel to reel. i could open a window and record birds and passing cars with no hiss. Modern preamps are designed to not have this kind of gain. After all, most people put 57s on guitar cabs, so gain settings are down at the bottom end - same when people sing into them, lips on the grill. The last bit on that knob is where the noise suddenly shoots in!

 

[Slouching Raymond]

It sounded OK to me.

 

[mark skinner]

I'll get some noise using my Tascam interface with a 57 if I set the gain where I "really" want it. I normally record a section of silence first , and get the max gain I can without the noise. Going thru an external preamp first Really helps if I take the time to do it. I love a 57 but normally have to mike real close to the source.

 

[ecc83]

I had a 204HD for few weeks and thought the mic pre amps were very good considering the price of the interface. However, the SM57 does have a very low sensitivity, better than the SM7b but not much!
The trick to beating pre amp noise is therefore to get close, within 50mm (and keep the preamp out of its noisy gain point) This however throws up other issues. The main one is "popping", the '57 has little in the way of a blast shield, unlike the SM58 which is a "proper" vocal mic. Fixed with a foam pop gag, possibly a mesh as well? The other problem is Proximity Effect, the unnatural boosting of lower frequencies, usually in the 60-120Hz range. That you can fix in the DAW. Which is?

Or! Buy a FetHead inline XLR booster. About $60 but Behries do an even cheaper one. No idea how good it is mind.

Dave.

 

[rob aylestone]

Hang on! I just listened to that guitar track. Noise seems fine to me?

 

[R D Smith]

Sounds fine to me also. Maybe the noise is in the play back chain. Have you listened to the file you posted anywhere else, like on your phone or in your car?

 

[ecc83]

Hang on! I just listened to that guitar track. Noise seems fine to me?

Yeah, I haven't listened yet but I wouldn't hear hiss unless it was at neg 20+! Unfortunately OP didn't leave us enough "silence" to really check it.
Attached is something my son sent me a few days ago. The microphone is a Lewitt 0404 (one of a matched pair*) and a classical guitar. Done using a looper...No! I don't know how either. I have also blkd him for how short the track is! Just getting into it and Pfft! There is also a splat a few seconds in, no idea what that is. Hopefully dad will be called in the next few days.

*We find them very good at the price, should give OP at least 6-8dB better noise floor.
Dave

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

Some random thoughts: The noise is not as bad as I was expecting.

I liked the music. That was nice.

(edited: because I said a dumb thing )

 

[ecc83]

Some random thoughts: The noise is not as bad as I was expecting. But there wasn't much silence there to judge. A condenser mic may make it worse given their increased sensitivity by nature. *If* your having to run the sensitivity adjustment on the interface way high - which is not a surprise given the SM57 - the right preamp might/could help.

I liked the music. That was nice.

If the OP's noise is the Berry pre amp then a capacitor microphone is almost certainly going to improve his noise floor, often dramatically. Most SDCs are a good 15dB more sensitive than an SM57. That means you need 15dB less gain in the AI preamp for the same dBFS level. Yes, capacitor mics have their own "self noise" but most SDCs are at around 20dB* and that is not a problem.

Many years ago my first interface was an M-Audio fast track pro. Pretty good generally but the mic pres were dreadful. Low in gain and even what there was was noisy! Dynamic mics for vocals were no go. I bought a paid of modest SDCs, AKG P150s (still have them) and they sorted it.

*Large D caps can have a self noise figure in single digits. The NT1a is one such.

Dave.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

If the OP's noise is the Berry pre amp then a capacitor microphone is almost certainly going to improve his noise floor, often dramatically. Most SDCs are a good 15dB more sensitive than an SM57. That means you need 15dB less gain in the AI preamp for the same dBFS level. Yes, capacitor mics have their own "self noise" but most SDCs are at around 20dB* and that is not a problem.

Many years ago my first interface was an M-Audio fast track pro. Pretty good generally but the mic pres were dreadful. Low in gain and even what there was was noisy! Dynamic mics for vocals were no go. I bought a paid of modest SDCs, AKG P150s (still have them) and they sorted it.

*Large D caps can have a self noise figure in single digits. The NT1a is one such.

Dave.

I knew that. I was just seeing if you knew that.

 

[ecc83]

I knew that. I was just seeing if you knew that.

So we BOTH know it! Which is cool innit.

Dave.

 

[CMolena]

First of all, thanks for all the replies, I've found them all really helpful.

I just listened to the track in my car and my earbuds and it sounded a whole lot better than on my MDR7506 (what I mix with). I am thinking that maybe the phone outputs of the Behringer maybe a bit noisy...or maybe I was mixing too loud and so eventually a bit of noise is expected?

The DAW I use is Studio One. I actually used a LPF (12khz) and HPF (180hz). I think that helped reduce the noise.

I am definitely thinking on buying a SDC, because it is generally quieter. I know that this track doesnt sound as bad as I thought, but I would like to reduce the noise to as low as possible.

Thanks a lot for the help!

 

[ecc83]

First of all, thanks for all the replies, I've found them all really helpful.

I just listened to the track in my car and my earbuds and it sounded a whole lot better than on my MDR7506 (what I mix with). I am thinking that maybe the phone outputs of the Behringer maybe a bit noisy...or maybe I was mixing too loud and so eventually a bit of noise is expected?

The DAW I use is Studio One. I actually used a LPF (12khz) and HPF (180hz). I think that helped reduce the noise.

I am definitely thinking on buying a SDC, because it is generally quieter. I know that this track doesnt sound as bad as I thought, but I would like to reduce the noise to as low as possible.

Thanks a lot for the help!

Some diagnostics could help. Setup for recording the guitar as you did before and record maybe 20 seconds then sit as still as you can for another 20 secs. Ideally you want the guitar to be hitting -20dBFS in the Studio One* meters with peaks no higher than -8. A good noise floor would be -70dBFS. Top end kit will get to -80 but in normal, even very subjectively quiet homes you won't do better in my exp' with a live mic. If ambient noise is a problem you will have to work at 2am! Don't forget...computers make a noise!

Replay noise: Can't tell you about the Behrry's headphone amps because I rarely use them but it is quite likely that they have save a bob or two there. However, the temptation with headphones is to play things too loudly, why I always say "monitors is best". Listening on loudspeakers you can judge the level to be the same as the acoustic guitar. People play stuff too loud anyway! I am clinically deaf, got the diagnosis, the T shirt and the aids but SANS aids I regularly listen to Radio 3 (like now!) two mtrs from my monitors at a measured 70-75dBC . Ludwig's piano sonata #31 on at the moment and I can hear every note (well, the last octave on the jo' is just clunks to me and a violin only has 3,1/2 strings!) I do need the aids for dialogue.

Even a pretty basic audio stereo setup will give you a better level reference than cans, don't need a lot of power for guitar.

*Meant to say, never used S1 but they are all basically the same. Mainly use Samplitude, Audacity sometimes Adobe Audition 1.5 and Sound Forge. N.B. I am not a musician, just "tech" for son.

Dave.

 

[TalismanRich]

I have also found that my 7506s have a very strong top end which is great for hearing things like hiss and fine detail, but if I try to mix with them, I end up cutting the highs, boosting lows, and then tracks sound dull on everything else. My AKG K240s are much more neutral sounding. My Sennheiser HD280s are very bottom heavy in comparison. If I use them to mix, then all my tracks sound thin. Using my monitors (JBL 308s) is my best option.

What Dave said is good advice. Give us 5 seconds of your best absolute silence before and after and then play. You might think the noise is coming from the mic or interface, when it might be coming from your room. A microphone can hear a lot that you and I will ignore. I can easily pick up the sound of air coming from a heater vent with my mics, but rarely notice it sitting in the room. I've heard the refrigerator compressor kick in and it's upstairs in the kitchen and my mic was in the basement. I once did a recording and at the end, in the "silence" I heard the sound of an small plane overheard that I never heard in the room while recording.

If you get a sound meter, you might find that your room has about 30dB or so of ambient noise. Then get the actual sound level of you playing your guitar where the mic would normally be. If you are playing and your guitar is only putting out 85dB, then the best S/N ratio you can achieve will be 55dB. It won't matter if your mic has 4dB of self noise, interface specs at -120dB and you are doing 24 bit recording (145dB S/N).

The only time I've experienced total silence was in a cave about a quarter mile underground. It's eerie!

 

[ecc83]

Rich says truly, there is only so much you can do to get a low noise floor.
Some "historic" signal to noise ratios might give you some context? A first class 15ips 1/4" stereo tape machine might give -60dB ref peak flux, nominally 0VU. Dolby A would improve that to perhaps -70dB. A really quiet LP pressing might also be -70dB. The very best live stereo FM broadcast could also achieve the -70dB* figure with a VERY good receiver.
Note however that these noise figures are ref about 3% total harmonic distortion (FM could be almost 1%). Today, we expect THD at peak level, 0dBFS to be better than 0.001%. Personally I will always trade a few dB of noise for two magnitudes lower distortion!

Also all three systems only got to be as quiet as they were by buggering about with the frequency response...'pre and de emphasis'

. Has been done with digital signals but not in our game if you are recording .wav.

In practice the sort of noise levels folks got at home with good audio kit were rarely better than -50-55dB and that was good enough most of the time.

*ref "peak deviation". Look it up, bit o edukashun!

Dave.

 

[TAE]

Sounded just fine to me....A ton of Grammy songs were recorded with sm 57 and 58's...Don't let gear acquisition syndrome (GAS) slow your goal...recording your music.

Rock on, record on! screw analysis paralysis!