Recording vocals with EV dynamics?

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jeak

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Hi, all. First post here.

I've been searching the archive for info on recording vocals with a dynamic. I'm venturing back into vocal songs after 10 years of instrumental music.

The SM57 and 58 seem to be the go-to standards, but I also saw an old thread mentioning the EV N/D767 (now called N/D767a). Anyone use this mic for recording vocals? How does it compare with a 57/58?

My budget ($150 give or take) and recording conditions have me looking at decent dynamics rather than cheap condensers. Plus I have a nice tube preamp that could help. This would be for home recordings. My voice is deep, breathy, and sometimes gravelly -- a cross between Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits, and newer Robbie Robertson ("Ghost Dance," "Unbound"). I would also use the mic for some percussion (djembe).

Thanks for any tips on dynamics, especially the EV.
 
jeak said:
Hi, all. First post here.

I've been searching the archive for info on recording vocals with a dynamic. I'm venturing back into vocal songs after 10 years of instrumental music.

The SM57 and 58 seem to be the go-to standards, but I also saw an old thread mentioning the EV N/D767 (now called N/D767a). Anyone use this mic for recording vocals? How does it compare with a 57/58?

My budget ($150 give or take) and recording conditions have me looking at decent dynamics rather than cheap condensers. Plus I have a nice tube preamp that could help. This would be for home recordings. My voice is deep, breathy, and sometimes gravelly -- a cross between Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits, and newer Robbie Robertson ("Ghost Dance," "Unbound"). I would also use the mic for some percussion (djembe).
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You might consider the Nady RSM-2/ShinyBox 46 ribbon mic. One of those will run you right around $150. It's a really nice mic for vocals, IMHO. Of course, you'd want to add a metal grille pop filter to that, so it would be a bit over $150 when all is said and done, but not a lot. I'd pick it over an SM57/58 any day of the week. (That said, you should read my opinion of the 57/58 some time. I think it included the words "baseball bat for midgets".... Not a fan.)

Miking Djembe with one would probably be fine. Just don't put a ribbon under congas in the "blow zone" or something silly. :D
 
Hi, SRR. Thanks for the clip. Sounds nice. I'm 2-3 octaves below that, so I guess I'd just have to try the 767a myself. But it seems to have good overall clarity. Also appears to have a wider range (35 - 22K) than most dynamics I've looked at.

dgatwood, I was looking at that very Nady ribbon the other day. Very interesting. I guess I'm a bit intimidated by the fragility of ribbons. Never had one before. What would be the best positioning for it over a djembe? "Blow zone" is my favorite phrase of the week. :)
 
I've found the EV ND series (157, 257, 267, 757, 767, 967) to be good for stage handheld stuff. I also got great results using the 767 on my guitar amp, much easier to get a hot clean signal than a SM57 is. It is hotter and also brighter, but if you adjust for that then I think the EV mics are frequently under rated. But with your deepr voice that may actually not be necessary. I'm sure the tube pre will make it sound even better.

I've never recorded vocals with one, but I have used an EV RE20 for that, and it was very nice even if it may be apples to oranges. I like EV mics...... in fact, the 757 is the reason I never kept my own SM57, I gave the SM57 and 58 to my brother after I bought my first ND.
 
soundchaser59 said:
I've found the EV ND series (157, 257, 267, 757, 767, 967) to be good for stage handheld stuff. I also got great results using the 767 on my guitar amp, much easier to get a hot clean signal than a SM57 is. It is hotter and also brighter, but if you adjust for that then I think the EV mics are frequently under rated. But with your deepr voice that may actually not be necessary. I'm sure the tube pre will make it sound even better.

I've never recorded vocals with one, but I have used an EV RE20 for that, and it was very nice even if it may be apples to oranges. I like EV mics...... in fact, the 757 is the reason I never kept my own SM57, I gave the SM57 and 58 to my brother after I bought my first ND.
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The RE20 is a big favorite with me and many others here.
I just got 3 RE18s from eBay. Haven't recorded with them, but they're good mics.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the N/D 367. EV markets it as "the Female Vocal Microphone", but it's great for us males too. Again, I've never recorded with it, but if it sounds good live it oughta sound good in a recording.
 
Thanks for the tips, guys. The RE20 is a bit out of my range right now, but I will keep it in mind for the future.

AGCurry, I have seen the 367 as well. I guess I was turned away by the "female vocal" marketing speak. Maybe I should try it after all? It has an even lower range (30Hz), though maybe not enough to make a big difference. Hmm, might have to audition both.
 
EV dynamics take to EQ real well. I wouldn't say they totally lack in proxmity effect. Just that it's much more controled and workable. Off-axis response is usually stellar, which is a trait of most high end mics.
 
Many thanks, chessrock. Good to know. Sounds like I'm on the right track as far as dynamics go.

I also trust I'm on the right track looking for a good dynamic rather than a cheaper condenser, no? Somewhere I read an opinion that sub-$300 condensers aren't worth it, that it's better to seek a good dynamic and save up for a better condenser later.

I bring this up because I was also looking at something like an MXL 990 for $50. I'd also need to get some kind of phantom power source, but I could still do that (and more) for less money than the EV dynamic.

Is this even worth considering, or should I just stick with my EV plan?
 
I also have a curiosity for EV mic.

Could anyone comment if the N/D767a would be more/less/as suitable for all round home use? I am looking for a mic that can be used for (beginner) home recording as well as other use (i.e. VoIP). I heard that the SM58 is in a way less clear than the N/D767A - could that be an advantage for a beginner? ;)

Price wise, they are not far appart over here. The SM58 is a little cheaper, but I categorise them to be in the same price range. I was actually quite set on the EV (it's still in the basket), until I read the the FAQ on http://www.hr-faq.org.

First I am concerned about the implication that the http 767A is hypercardioids. When recording, it will be for voice only, and according to that FAQ, cardioids are easier to work with in that case.
Furthermore, the 767A is nowhere to be found in their their "best" list of mic list.

Ta.
 
Of their current lineup both the re20, re27 and re16 have no proximity effect due to their extensive baffling ("Variable D" as they call it). Many of the older re/pl models share this characteristic. Elvis and Dolly P both had a thing for the re15. The older ev mics I have are all great but not super contemporary sounding or especially bright. I have not heard any of the newer nd series mics. I believe for the most part they dont use the proximity defeating design in these.
 
TooNice said:
I also have a curiosity for EV mic.

Could anyone comment if the N/D767a would be more/less/as suitable for all round home use? I am looking for a mic that can be used for (beginner) home recording as well as other use (i.e. VoIP). I heard that the SM58 is in a way less clear than the N/D767A - could that be an advantage for a beginner? ;)

Price wise, they are not far appart over here. The SM58 is a little cheaper, but I categorise them to be in the same price range. I was actually quite set on the EV (it's still in the basket), until I read the the FAQ on http://www.hr-faq.org.

First I am concerned about the implication that the http 767A is hypercardioids. When recording, it will be for voice only, and according to that FAQ, cardioids are easier to work with in that case.
Furthermore, the 767A is nowhere to be found in their their "best" list of mic list.

Ta.
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I would steer you more towards an Re-20 or preferrably an Re-27, but I am rather biased towards those mics (right now, the 27 and U87 are my two go-tos). Cardoids are indeed easier for voice, in most cases. I have nothing against hypercardoids and own more than a few, but only use them when dealing in a noisy environment or when looking for a "boomier" sound out of my vocal recordings. IMO, the 767a is a good mic, but you want something in a standard cardoid pattern for starters
 
As long as we're digging up three-month-old threads....

jeak said:
dgatwood, I was looking at that very Nady ribbon the other day. Very interesting. I guess I'm a bit intimidated by the fragility of ribbons. Never had one before. What would be the best positioning for it over a djembe? "Blow zone" is my favorite phrase of the week. :)
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Out in the room two or three feet, if I were guessing. The key would be to not put one in a place where you're going to have a lot of air motion, so probably far enough out that the player's hands won't be swishing right past it, and probably far enough out that the player won't risk hitting it. (The RSM-2, at least, gives a really LOUD sound like hitting a large metal pan with a skillet if you bump the mic stand even a little bit. I'd hate to think what would happen if a djembe player smacked it. :D)

The word of the day for today is: Experiment.
 
http://www.electrovoice.com/Electrovoice3/products.nsf/pages/ND767a

Based on the description it would be an upgrade for a SM58, perhaps more like a Beta 58. As for its suitability for a beginner the fact that it has a supercardiod pattern might make it less forgiving to slightly incorrect mic technique (since holding it out of position would have you more off-axis).

You might also look at the Sennheiser e847.
 
Thanks. The RE-20 is definitely out of my price range ;)
A couple of other things:

- I'll be using the mic on the break out box of my X-Fi Elite Pro. Is one mic potentially better than the other without a dedicated pre-amp?

- My PC is not silent. There is a clear hum to it even when I am not running anything intensive. In time, I'll add some larger cooler/fans at some point to reduce the noise, but would it be an issue at the moment?

I'll be buying from this dealer since they sell a cable I happen to need for my audio: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_online_catalogue_mi.html

They also make attractive bundle deals (by UK standard - I know it's cheaper in the US):
SM-58S: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_artikel-189235.html
ND767A: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_artikel-189244.html (effectively the same cost as the SM-58S once when you take into account the cost of the bundle)

I also looked at some other alternatives: Behringer XM8500 (cheap), Sennheiser e845 (they don't seem to sell the e847), and there are a bunch of AKG and Beyerdynamic at various price range. But I have no idea how they perform, and only recognise them for headphones.

Thanks for any feedback :)
 
I've used all five of those mics on my guitar cab, 767, 757, 967, RE20 and SM57.....

I started out thinking the hotter brighter response of the EV N-Dym mics was a good thing, now after comparing a ton of clips side by side I'm not so happy with it.

There is a good reason why the SM57 is the standard "go to" mic. The 757 or 767 is good, but the hot signal and the presence boost are excessive in my opinion. The 967 is still too hot, but it has a newer sound, more balanced and flatter than the older N-Dym's. But even the 967 is still too bright for electric guitar. For some reason, the ND468 does not sound like the other N-Dym's, and it is still my "favorite" cab mic. But the "best" cab mic I have is the RE20.

The RE20 is the best (or an MD421) but is a little pricey. If I did my guitar cab mic'ing tactics all over again from scratch - knowing what I know now - I would stick with the ND468, the D770, and the SM57......in that order.

In fact, if budget is super tight you can get the AKG D770 from fullcompass.com for $56. I just got a quote from them on an Apex 210 ribbon for $153. That little D770 can take a lot of punishment.
 
Thanks for the reply :)

Is there anything you can tell me about the difference in requirement for recording and live performance?

And why the SM57 seems to be prefered over the SM58 over here? I thought the SM57 were made for instrument and the SM58 for vocals.

Past user reviews I've read about the 767 have always been very positive. I was under the impression that the SM 57/58 were popular on stage, primary because they were "indestructable" (again, only based on what I've read, nothing else), but you could find better mic in the same price range for home use (I don't think I'll be swinging/dropping it).

Come to think of it, how about the recording voice? Do some mic provide more "synergy" with one's voice than others (say if you have a deep voice/high pitched voice etc.)? Or pehaps some more forgiving than others? Or are they all mostly the same?

And finally, what is "cab"?

Lots of questions, thanks for your patience.
 
TooNice said:
Is there anything you can tell me about the difference in requirement for recording and live performance?

And why the SM57 seems to be prefered over the SM58 over here? I thought the SM57 were made for instrument and the SM58 for vocals.
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I'm not an authority on the subject, but generally speaking you dont need the accuracy and detail of a condensor for live stage use that you would want for recording. Also, you want to minimize feedback on stage, and cardioid dynamic mics resist feedback really well on stage. SPL's and "abuse" are more rigorous on stage as opposed to studio use, and the dynamics are much more resistant to abuse and damage. Most people will not take a relatively delicate condensor mic on stage, although there are condensor mics that are designed to be "hand held stage" mics. Shure SM86 would be an example of that. Sennheiser has a few hand held stage condensors also. IN general, the SM57 is intended for instrument, but......

TooNice said:
Come to think of it, how about the recording voice? Do some mic provide more "synergy" with one's voice than others (say if you have a deep voice/high pitched voice etc.)? Or pehaps some more forgiving than others? Or are they all mostly the same?
Click to expand...

Correct, all mics are different, and one mic will sound different with different voices. One voice will sound different with different mics. Each mic will emphasize a different aspect of each voice, some will be synergistic and some will be counterproductive. Only way to know is to try different mics with a singer until you find the one that suits that voice. I know a guy who records all of his own voice tracks with an SM57, and he sounds really good.....but he is also a rather talented singer. A good singer can make a cheap mic sound good, but a good mic cannot make a cheap singer sound good.

TooNice said:
And finally, what is "cab"?
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Guitar cab, as in external speaker cab plugged into an amp.
 
i own an ev n/d767 and think that its a good mic to start with, especially on vocals. also its a good sturdy build and you could probably knock nails in with the thing, which is useful if like me you have the ocassional drunk mishap.
 
The N/D 767 and 367 are very good mics for live use, but for recording? They impart a *lot* of color, which means they won't be very versatile. I've never heard of these being used in the studio.

More neutral-sounding Electrovoice choices would be the RE10, RE15, RE18, etc.. These are available used on eBay for pretty small $$.
 
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