Recording vocals with EV dynamics?
- Thread starter jeak
- Start date
TooNice said:
I would probably choose the SM58 over N/D767 for a sparkly voice. For a dull voice, other way around. The 767 has quite a presence rise. Another possibility which might work for your budget in your neck of the world would be the Beyerdynamics M69. A little better than the 58 in my judgment.
Umm, this is going to be slightly OT, I was going to start a new thread, but somehow I can't (the thread doesn't). But I've decided to open some options. Basically, after reading around I've come across the term "flattering" sound, which is often associated with condenser mics with large diaphragm. I went through the list of condenser mics the site that I intend to buy the mic from, and I found a few which are within my budget - could anyone offer some recommendations out the following [it's a big list, since I am not sure what to look for - please bear with me 
]?
- AKG C2000B
- AKG CK93
- AKG C 418 L
- AKG C444PP
- AKG Perception P 100
- AKG C900 M EMOTION SERIE
[Actually, there are heaps of AKGs condenser mic, so I'll move on]
- Audio Technica Pro 24
- Audio Technica ATM33A [Overbudget]
- Audio Technica MB 4K
- Audio Technica ATM31A
- MXL 9000 [Overbudget, kinda but I think I've heard of this one mentioned before]
- MXL 990 [Much better, spot on in terms of budget]
- MXL 992 [Priced similarly to the 9000 - no idea what are the diff]
- MXL V67G
- SENNHEISER E 865 [Overbudget]
- SHURE SM 86 [A lil over budget]
- Studio Projects C1 [Overbudget]
- Studio Projects B3 [More reasonable but still costly]
- Studio Projects B1 [Perfect budget wise, large diaphragm too]
- the t.bone RB500 [Ribbon based - whatever that mean]
- the t.bone SCT700
- the t.bone SC1100
If it is any help, I have a deep voice. And again, I am looking for "flattering sound". The ones I listed as overbudget mean that well, unless there is a very good reason to go for those, I'd rather stick with something cheaper.
It also look like the store doesn't stock any E/Vs that are condenser based, although I have seen the 'Cobalt' series in another store. Or, do anyone think I should stick with the ND 767A?
Cheers.
]?- AKG C2000B
- AKG CK93
- AKG C 418 L
- AKG C444PP
- AKG Perception P 100
- AKG C900 M EMOTION SERIE
[Actually, there are heaps of AKGs condenser mic, so I'll move on]
- Audio Technica Pro 24
- Audio Technica ATM33A [Overbudget]
- Audio Technica MB 4K
- Audio Technica ATM31A
- MXL 9000 [Overbudget, kinda but I think I've heard of this one mentioned before]
- MXL 990 [Much better, spot on in terms of budget]
- MXL 992 [Priced similarly to the 9000 - no idea what are the diff]
- MXL V67G
- SENNHEISER E 865 [Overbudget]
- SHURE SM 86 [A lil over budget]
- Studio Projects C1 [Overbudget]
- Studio Projects B3 [More reasonable but still costly]
- Studio Projects B1 [Perfect budget wise, large diaphragm too]
- the t.bone RB500 [Ribbon based - whatever that mean]
- the t.bone SCT700
- the t.bone SC1100
If it is any help, I have a deep voice. And again, I am looking for "flattering sound". The ones I listed as overbudget mean that well, unless there is a very good reason to go for those, I'd rather stick with something cheaper.
It also look like the store doesn't stock any E/Vs that are condenser based, although I have seen the 'Cobalt' series in another store. Or, do anyone think I should stick with the ND 767A?
Cheers.
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Hi, all. I just noticed that my thread from a few months ago has be revived. Good to see more comments. I have since bought a 767 but still have not tried it on vocals. I tried it on my Champan Stick amp, and it's OK. I prefer my new (used) ATM25 for that. Much deeper bass and smoother overall.
Right now I am thinking of biting the bullet and getting an SM7B for my vocals. It was out of my price range when I started this EV thread, but now I can do it if I want to. I am also looking at the new Heil Sound PR-30 and PR-40. They seem to be a standard in broadcasting, but they get mixed reviews for recording vocals.
To recap, I have a deep singing voice, cross between new Leonard Cohen and Tom Waits plus a little Robbie Robertson ("Ghost Dance"). Seems like the SM7 is a standard for deep vox. Haven't made up my mind yet, but I'm getting there.
Thanks for the added belated info.
Right now I am thinking of biting the bullet and getting an SM7B for my vocals. It was out of my price range when I started this EV thread, but now I can do it if I want to. I am also looking at the new Heil Sound PR-30 and PR-40. They seem to be a standard in broadcasting, but they get mixed reviews for recording vocals.
To recap, I have a deep singing voice, cross between new Leonard Cohen and Tom Waits plus a little Robbie Robertson ("Ghost Dance"). Seems like the SM7 is a standard for deep vox. Haven't made up my mind yet, but I'm getting there.
Thanks for the added belated info.
Presence boost
Okay, I am walking in circle
I'd like to know a little bit more about the presence boost on the 767a. First of all, what exactly are presence boost? Which part of the sound does it boost, or is it different for every mic?
I took a test here, I find that overall, I really like the sound of the Shure KSM44. But the cost is simply excessive. I am tempted to put it on my credit card, but I know it is a bad idea. Plus, I am not too keen buying from Ebay, and buying it from a retailer in Europe is even more expensive than importing from the US through Ebay (it cost over $900 here!). So I have to write that off. However, the noticed that the mic is described as having a flattering presence boost. Could I expect something similar from the 767a, or is it completely different? [I am talking about the presence boost effect, I am well aware that a sub $200 dynamic is not meant to compete with a $600+ LD Condenser]
And I would be hugely appreciative if someone can take the time to record themselves saying a sentence or two, through the SM57/58 and the EV 767a.
At the end of the day, a budget pre-amp would cost almost as much as those mic, and I think that I should work on my singing first before moving onto very expensive equipment (since this is only one of my many interests, I can't afford spend irresponsibly). So I am reconsidering dynamic an affordable dynamic as my first mic.
Okay, I am walking in circle
I'd like to know a little bit more about the presence boost on the 767a. First of all, what exactly are presence boost? Which part of the sound does it boost, or is it different for every mic?
I took a test here, I find that overall, I really like the sound of the Shure KSM44. But the cost is simply excessive. I am tempted to put it on my credit card, but I know it is a bad idea. Plus, I am not too keen buying from Ebay, and buying it from a retailer in Europe is even more expensive than importing from the US through Ebay (it cost over $900 here!). So I have to write that off. However, the noticed that the mic is described as having a flattering presence boost. Could I expect something similar from the 767a, or is it completely different? [I am talking about the presence boost effect, I am well aware that a sub $200 dynamic is not meant to compete with a $600+ LD Condenser]
And I would be hugely appreciative if someone can take the time to record themselves saying a sentence or two, through the SM57/58 and the EV 767a.
At the end of the day, a budget pre-amp would cost almost as much as those mic, and I think that I should work on my singing first before moving onto very expensive equipment (since this is only one of my many interests, I can't afford spend irresponsibly). So I am reconsidering dynamic an affordable dynamic as my first mic.
jeak said:
I think I sold you that ATM25, and by coincidence, I used it to fund buying a mic like you're looking for now. I ended up getting a Beyer M99, which turns out is the best thing I've heard on my wretched voice to date. 'Sposed to be a good bass and kick mic too, although I've been too busy to give it a full run through on everything. Dont spose youve tried singing through the ATM25 yet? I actually hear it is supposed to be ok on certain kinds of vox, although I never tried it myself. Love to hear some finished stick stuff with the atm sometime. -L-
Hi, Lance. Guess what. I ended up with an RE20. I bought a few mics, in addition to your ATM25, and did a shootout of my own, with my own voice. Based on forum advice, I expected the RE20 to come in last, but it won. Go figure. Actually, the ATM25 fared very well. It's a bit too boxy on my voice, whereas the RE20 sounds more open. The ATM25's lows are great, though, which is nice for my voice. But again, the RE20 is clearer yet also does excellent lows. Unfortunately I had to sell the ATM25 to help fund the RE20 (4x the price), but I can imagine having another ATM25 someday if I ever need to mic my cabs and sing at the same time. I am also now selling my N/D 767a (also to help fund the RE20), though I really like that mic too. Which leads me to TooNice's questions:
Sorry, I cannot make any audio clips right now because my studio is torn apart at the moment (minor remodeling). But I can tell you a little about the 767a versus the SM57. I have tried both. I have not tried the KSM44, but I did take the shootout test you mentioned in your post.
When I took the online "taste test," I preferred the SM57 above all the rest. When I bought one and tested it for myself, I found that it was a bit muddy on my voice. It was nice and full sounding, but it lacked the clarity of the RE20. The 767a sounds really good on my voice, nice and rich. However, in certain registers, it has a bit too much midrange for my taste. But it is nice and clear. The best thing about the 767a, besides its nice sound, is that it is really loud. It requires less preamp gain than the SM57, ATM25, and RE20.
I also tried the SM7, which was the loser of the batch for me (big surprise, actually, as I expected it to come in first or second). With its switches set a certain way (sorry, I can't remember which way), it sounded remarkably like the 57 on my voice. I messed with the switches some more, and my favorite setting was the one that sounded like the 57. So why spend the extra $250?
So, to summarize the 57 versus the 767a (with my voice):
SM57: Nice full sound but a little muddy.
767a: Nice and rich, still full sounding, but also a tad midrangy.
At one point I had audio clips of all of these mics -- alone with no preamp, then with the RNP preamp, then with a Great River preamp, then finally with the custom tube preamp I use with my Chapman Stick. For my tastes, my custom tube pre blew the others away, so I returned the RNP and the Great River. As I said above, the RE20 won the mic match.
TooNice, if you can, try both the 767a and the SM57. If you must chose one or the other, I would say go with the 767a because it is louder and works better without an external preamp. I tried plugging it straight into my Roland hard drive recorder and had plenty of gain. The Shure mics have barely enough gain. When you eventually get an outboard preamp, this will not be an issue, but for now it might be.
Good luck. Hope this helps.
Sorry, I cannot make any audio clips right now because my studio is torn apart at the moment (minor remodeling). But I can tell you a little about the 767a versus the SM57. I have tried both. I have not tried the KSM44, but I did take the shootout test you mentioned in your post.
When I took the online "taste test," I preferred the SM57 above all the rest. When I bought one and tested it for myself, I found that it was a bit muddy on my voice. It was nice and full sounding, but it lacked the clarity of the RE20. The 767a sounds really good on my voice, nice and rich. However, in certain registers, it has a bit too much midrange for my taste. But it is nice and clear. The best thing about the 767a, besides its nice sound, is that it is really loud. It requires less preamp gain than the SM57, ATM25, and RE20.
I also tried the SM7, which was the loser of the batch for me (big surprise, actually, as I expected it to come in first or second). With its switches set a certain way (sorry, I can't remember which way), it sounded remarkably like the 57 on my voice. I messed with the switches some more, and my favorite setting was the one that sounded like the 57. So why spend the extra $250?
So, to summarize the 57 versus the 767a (with my voice):
SM57: Nice full sound but a little muddy.
767a: Nice and rich, still full sounding, but also a tad midrangy.
At one point I had audio clips of all of these mics -- alone with no preamp, then with the RNP preamp, then with a Great River preamp, then finally with the custom tube preamp I use with my Chapman Stick. For my tastes, my custom tube pre blew the others away, so I returned the RNP and the Great River. As I said above, the RE20 won the mic match.
TooNice, if you can, try both the 767a and the SM57. If you must chose one or the other, I would say go with the 767a because it is louder and works better without an external preamp. I tried plugging it straight into my Roland hard drive recorder and had plenty of gain. The Shure mics have barely enough gain. When you eventually get an outboard preamp, this will not be an issue, but for now it might be.
Good luck. Hope this helps.
Just one more thing I'll add. I have a really low-budget home studio. With my humble gear, I found the differences between mics to be remarkably slight. Yes, I heard the differences and appreciated them, but they were not night and day. The RE20 does not necessarily sound $300 better than the SM57. In fact, if I had heard one and only one of these mics and had to live with just that one, I would have been OK with that. If I had to rank them, I'd probably order the list like this: RE20, ATM25, 767a, SM57, SM7. But again, for my cheap studio, any one of them would be fine. Don't go in too many circles about this. Just buy the best one you can afford and be happy. Someone (perhaps many someones) on this forum has pointed out that vocal performance accounts for most of a good vocal recording. That is so true. If you have the money to play around, do it and have fun. If you don't have money, get what you can afford and have fun anyway.
jeak said:
jeak, I came to the same conclusion about the SM57 vs. SM7b.... I liked the SM57 better except for trying to control the popping when singing really close. I have got to find someone in Austin with an RE20 I can listen to...
Did you buy yours online? Full Compass gave a pretty good quote, although it's still a lot of money for a mic to me... I did spend $300 on an SM81 to record my acoustic and I do think it was worth it. I love that mic!
Thanks,
bilco
Hi, Bilco. Glad I'm not the only one who hears the similarity between the 57 and the 7. I thought it might be blasphemy to say they sound alike to me.
I got the RE20 from Sweetwater. I think it was $399. I'm sure they can be found on sale for less and used for even less again. But I hope to keep it forever. We'll see about that.
Someday if I ever have a proper recording room/booth, I would like to check out some nice LDCs. I did consider looking into them now, but I figured my studio would just bring out the worst in them. That's why I stuck with dynamics.
As for finding an RE20 in Austin, try your local NPR radio station. I recently recorded a few announcements for an NPR station in my parents' West Texas town, and the station manager handed me an RE20 to do the spots. I did not realize this until I received my own RE20, and then I recognized it right away. That station manager must have known (even before I did) that that was the mic for me!
P.S. A simple pop screen does wonders for the SM57 and other dynamics. I have a Shure Popper Stopper. It cost around $25, but to my sound, it's easily worth as much as any mic.
I got the RE20 from Sweetwater. I think it was $399. I'm sure they can be found on sale for less and used for even less again. But I hope to keep it forever. We'll see about that.
Someday if I ever have a proper recording room/booth, I would like to check out some nice LDCs. I did consider looking into them now, but I figured my studio would just bring out the worst in them. That's why I stuck with dynamics. As for finding an RE20 in Austin, try your local NPR radio station. I recently recorded a few announcements for an NPR station in my parents' West Texas town, and the station manager handed me an RE20 to do the spots. I did not realize this until I received my own RE20, and then I recognized it right away. That station manager must have known (even before I did) that that was the mic for me!
P.S. A simple pop screen does wonders for the SM57 and other dynamics. I have a Shure Popper Stopper. It cost around $25, but to my sound, it's easily worth as much as any mic.
@jeak: Thanks for your input. Could you tell me what comes with a 767a? Do I need to buy a cable separately? I guess that it runs on XLR, so I would need a converter there to run on the pre-amp of my X-Fi Elite Pro.
Would I need a windscreen or is the pop filter adequate?
One of the reason I find the Shure SM58 appealing here is because it seems to come with a clamp, which would be handy if I put it on a table (since I don't want to hold it all the time, and it will mainly be used on a PC).
Would I need a windscreen or is the pop filter adequate?
One of the reason I find the Shure SM58 appealing here is because it seems to come with a clamp, which would be handy if I put it on a table (since I don't want to hold it all the time, and it will mainly be used on a PC).
That SM58 you're looking at just comes with a normal mic clip. You screw that onto the end of a mic stand. The 767 comes with the same type of clip. For tabletop use, you could get a short mic stand that would accept the mic clip. You could also get a gooseneck stand and use it the same way. Yes, you will want a pop filter with either the SM58/57 or the 767. For stage use, the built-in screen is fine unless you're performing outdoors in the wind. For that you would want a foam wind screen. For recording, a pop filter will make your life easier and your recordings much better. As for cables, the 767 needs a regular XLR line. Depending on your preamp/recorder/mixer (whatever you plug the mic into), you might need a mic cable with a 1/4 on the other end or maybe even a 1/4 TRS.
jeak said:
I don't know why I think that's so funny, but I do. I think ebay has changed how we look at gear. In the old days if I bought a piece of kit, I felt like I had to keep it forever, cause there was no way I was gonna get my money back out of it if I wanted to upgrade. Now I buy stuff all the time, try it out for a couple weeks and pass it along. Even if I like it. Sometimes I just get bored and want to change things a round. Could never have done that in the 80's or 90's.
I hear you on the eBay cycle! I've been doing it this way for years, though. In the '80s in Southern California there was (maybe still is?) a newspaper called The Recycler. It was nothing but classified ads, which anyone could place for free over the phone. I bought and sold tons of stuff that way. The major difference then was that we all had to drive many miles to someone's house to look at and buy gear (no photos in those ads). Still, as a result of all this gear swapping, I have been able to afford to try a lot of stuff. Only a handful of items have I kept through all those years.
Okay, I'll get the 767a. Just the finishing touches now
Do I need one of those: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?pa...info.html?sn=6fad2e8e4bc4ec17129cc1274f51333d
Is this the right cable if I want to run the microphone: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_cordial_ctm_5_fp_sw_prodinfo.html
Since the bundle I bought already come with those cables: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=the_sssnake_sk233-10_prodinfo.html?iwid=2 could I just attach this: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_neutrik_na_2_fp_prodinfo.html or http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_neutrik_na3fp_adapter_prodinfo.html?
I believe that the difference between the two is "Mono" and "Stereo". What is the difference? And am I right to look at a female XLR adapter in the first place? I apologise for those newbie questions as this will be my first proper mic. Hence I am not too sure how everything works. I assume that the mic is plugged onto the female side of a XLR cable or adapter, is that correct?
Do I need one of those: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?pa...info.html?sn=6fad2e8e4bc4ec17129cc1274f51333d
Is this the right cable if I want to run the microphone: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_cordial_ctm_5_fp_sw_prodinfo.html
Since the bundle I bought already come with those cables: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=the_sssnake_sk233-10_prodinfo.html?iwid=2 could I just attach this: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_neutrik_na_2_fp_prodinfo.html or http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_neutrik_na3fp_adapter_prodinfo.html?
I believe that the difference between the two is "Mono" and "Stereo". What is the difference? And am I right to look at a female XLR adapter in the first place? I apologise for those newbie questions as this will be my first proper mic. Hence I am not too sure how everything works. I assume that the mic is plugged onto the female side of a XLR cable or adapter, is that correct?
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TooNice said:Okay, I'll get the 767a. Just the finishing touches now
Do I need one of those: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?pa...info.html?sn=6fad2e8e4bc4ec17129cc1274f51333d
Is this the right cable if I want to run the microphone: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_cordial_ctm_5_fp_sw_prodinfo.html
Since the bundle I bought already come with those cables: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=the_sssnake_sk233-10_prodinfo.html?iwid=2 could I just attach this: http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_neutrik_na_2_fp_prodinfo.html or http://www.thomann.de/index.html?partner_id=97926&page=thoiw2_neutrik_na3fp_adapter_prodinfo.html?
I believe that the difference between the two is "Mono" and "Stereo". What is the difference? And am I right to look at a female XLR adapter in the first place? I apologise for those newbie questions as this will be my first proper mic. Hence I am not too sure how everything works. I assume that the mic is plugged onto the female side of a XLR cable or adapter, is that correct?
You should not need that first item. The mic should come with a clip like that. Mine did.
According to this page, the X-Fi Elite Pro has a balanced (TRS) line/mic input. This means it can take a stereo 1/4 plug. So if you already have that cord you mentioned above (XLR to XLR), then you could use that stereo 1/4 adapter. Yes, the female end of the cable comes out of the mic. Then the male end will go into the adapter, which should go into the panel of your X-Fi. Just double-check the specs (or the panel) to make sure the unit indeed has the TRS input (stereo 1/4 jack).
It's not really a stereo signal. It's a balanced mono signal, which requires three wires. An XLR plug has three pins, and the stereo 1/4 plug (TRS means tip-ring-sleeve) allows for the same three wires. Balanced lines help cut down on noise, especially with longer cables (more than 5-6 meters or so). You could use a regular mono 1/4, but if your X-Fi has a TRS input, you might as well take advantage of it and use a balanced line. For basic home recording, it may not make much difference, though. Except if your recording/mic input is not balanced, then you pretty much have to use an unbalanced (mono) cable. That is my situation, so I use a Hi-Z mic cable with an XLR on the mic end and a 1/4 mono on the other.TooNice said:
bilco said:
It's not unlikely that you would hear similarities. They use the same diaphragm, I believe. A lot of people (myself included) assume the SM7 is a large diaphragm mic because of it's size. It's not - I think it might have been Chessrock that corrected me on that years ago, or maybe someone else - can't remember!