Recording to cassette tape question(s)

[Fruscayerdrix]

The cassette ones? Not sure. The 38 and TSR-8 turn up quite frequently on ebay, though. But they are 1/2" reel-to-reel machines so the tape isn't cheap and you'd need a mixer to go with it.

(And yes, although up to Sergeant Pepper was made on 4-track with multiple bounces, The Beatles began recording some of their stuff at Trident or some other studio because they needed 8 tracks)

Just a guess, but doesn't a reel-to-reel tape hold more minutes than a cassette? I realized my 60min tapes can only hold 15 min worth of songs, dus to the use of both sides and the tape speed. But i'm sure that's nothing new to you. To me it was though

The Tascam cassette 8-track Portastudios are quite respectable, with surprisingly good sound quality considering it's microscopic track width.

If you want Portastudio format 8-track convenience and reel/reel fidelity, you might consider the 1/4" reel 388. This is a tangible step up from cassette, but is not quite as big and costly as 1/2" reel/mixer systems. However, it will be more costly than cassette. Too big to be called "Portastudio", the 388's known as the "Studio 8", but it's relatively portable nonetheless. (Records 8-tracks/simul/max).

If i stumble upon a 488 mkII it's definitely coming home with me. For now the best way seems to record my main vocals and guitar on the 424 and then transport that to my Dp02. That way i can add some modest effects and do the backings and synths etc. Tomorrow i'm recording a full song and i'm picking up a second-hand Nakamichi cassettedeck.

I also did some reverse guitar (something my DP02 won't do), which came out pretty well. I did miss a little reverb though for the build up, but i don't have an effects unit; and somehow the use of effects on the 424 seems pretty complicated to me.

Just a quickie on cassettes.
If you can find some TDK AD that was a very high bias type 1 tape. It actually needed more bias than some type 2's and consequently sounded very bad on some consumer machines. Properly biased tho' it is excellent tape.

NOT to be confused with TDK D which is a pretty middle of the road type 1 ferric. Ok for the ole jamjar tho!

Dave.

Just wondering, what does 'bias' mean? I know the best way to go is the high bias type, but i actually have no idea what it's supposed to mean.
I have some Super D's coming. I 've read that they're considered to be middle of the road type 2 cassettes


EDIT: I just saw there's a 424 MKii for sale. Really cheap, even cheaper than the one i have now. Now i'm considering buying it, just for the heck of it and do the whole bouncing back and forth thing between the two. But doesn't that mean there's a lot of this so called generation loss i've been reading about?
Would two 424 be favorable over an 488?
Man, how quickly one can move from one multitracker, to three ....

 

[A Reel Person]

Hey There! I was asked to post some examples...

PROLOGUE: You will have to sign up at this site as "listener" or "band" account to listen to these Mp3's. Soundclick is a safe, virus and spam free site. Ok.


NOTE HERE: Even though most 424mkII recordings are detailed "No Playback EQ", it's by virtue that they were mixed to mono off the Cue Buss outputs. However, in general I will use little or no EQ on mixdown/playback almost as a rule, being that (a) I like to showcase the 'true' sound I got to tape and (b) they typically don't need it. I didn't note it specifically on other recordings because I couldn't remember exactly for fact. Alternately, I'll use EQ freely in the recording process on the input-side in order to get the "best" sound down to tape. OK!

Tascam 424mkII with no bouncing. NOTE this was mixed to mono off the Cue Monitor section (no playback EQ) Commando

Tascam 424mkII with no bouncing. NOTE this was mixed to mono off the Cue Monitor section (no playback EQ) Now I Wanna Be a Good Boy

Tascam 424mkII with no bouncing. NOTE this was mixed to mono off the Cue Monitor section (no playback EQ) Loudmouth

Tascam 424mkII with no bouncing & use of moderate "packing". NOTE this was mixed to mono off the Cue Monitor section (no playback EQ) Oh, Oh, I Love Her So

Tascam 424mkII with no bouncing & use of moderate "packing". NOTE this was mixed to mono off the Cue Monitor section (no playback EQ) Chain Saw

Tascam 424mkII with no bouncing & maximum packing of the tracks Beware My Love

Tascam 424mkIII with no bouncing It's So Hard

Tascam 424mkIII with no bouncing Oh Yoko

Tascam 424mkIII with no bouncing & very moderate "packing" Carbona Not Glue

Tascam 424mkIII with no bouncing & very moderate "packing" Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment

Tascam 424mkIII with no bouncing & very moderate "packing" He's Gonna Kill That Girl

Tascam 488mkII Demo 1 How Do You Sleep?

Tascam 488mkII Demo 2 The Black Widow

Tascam 488mkII Demo 3 I Wanna Be Well

**NOTE HERE** If you notice slightly less amplitude on the 488mkII demos, it's actually that my SOUNDCARD could NOT handle the HEADROOM of the 488mkII,... NOT vice-versa. **STRANGE BUT TRUE** 'cause I know this goes against "accepted wisdom". It's the naked truth here folks, and I won't spin it or candy coat it.*** The remedy? TURN IT UP! The fidelity holds up at louder volumes. In fact, I'd recommed ALL my recordings be listened to at MAXIMUM VOLUME! Thank you!

Tascam 244 from 1983 with NO Bouncing Be My Wife

Tascam 244 from 1983 with Moderate and Successful Bouncing Fashion

Tascam 244 from 1983 with Overzealous Bouncing What in the World

Tascam 38 from 1983 with Overzealous Bouncing It's No Game

Tascam 38 from 1997 with NO Bouncing Glass Onion

Successful multi-format bouncing technique: NOTE, here I developed the entire song, all vocals and instruments less drums, on a cassette 4-track Tascam 244 Portastudio, which sometime years later bounced the 4-track cassette to the 1/2" reel 8-track to add drums. Notice the lead vocal is double tracked, and the thick layer of the chorus vocals,... all done incl. guitar and bass on the 244. I Want You/She's So Heavy

Tascam 388 Demo A with No Bouncing & DBX ON Listen to My Heart

Tascam 388 Demo B with No Bouncing & DBX ON Long Time Gone

Tascam 388 Demo C with No Bouncing & DBX ON. NOTE that drums, vocals & guitar were done live-to-tape and only bass was overdubbed later. Audible hiss may be from loud guitar amp and vocal PA. It's a Long Way Back

Tascam 388 Demo D with No Bouncing & DBX OFF Moonage Daydream

EPILOGUE: Thank you for listening to a song all the way through, if you can stand it! If I were to listen to your recordings I'd give you the same courtesy. All comments and/or criticizms are welcome. I think I have covered a lot of recorded ground here, in terms of years, formats and fidelity,... either for empirical scientific study or flat out enjoyment in listening, or both,... your choice! There's plenty more where this came from, with my Soundclick Music pages numbering 9. As always, YMMV!

PS: I do not listen to my own stuff online, so please let me know if any of these links don't work or don't link to the correct songs.

Thanks again!

 

[A Reel Person]

Gonna recap here, but...

If you're scoping a lot of bouncing into your cassette 4-track productions, you're much better off with an 8-track. Whether that's a DP02 or 488mkII (Tascam 38, TSR8, Fostex A8, M80, R8, etc.) really depends on how much you're focused on doing things either in analog or digital.

 

[A Reel Person]

Hello again!

I don't have my "tape card" with me, but I did the math. Someone pls correct me if I'm wrong:

A 2500' (10.5") reel of tape running at 15 IPS will run 33-1/3 minutes. (Tascam 38, TSR8, 34, 32, 48, 58, ATR60/8, MS16, MSR16, Fostex E8, E2, etc.)
A 2500' (10.5") reel of tape running at 7.5 IPS will run 66-2/3 minutes. (Tascam 34, 32, Fostex E2)
An 1800' (7") reel of tape running at 7.5 IPS will run 48 minutes. (Tascam 388, 34, 32, Fostex A2, A4, E2)
A 1200' (7") reel of tape running at 7.5 IPS will run 32 minutes. (Tascam 388, 34, 32, Fostex A2, A4, E2)
An 1800' (7") reel of tape running at 15 IPS will run 24 minutes. (Tascam 34, 32, Fostex A8, A8LR, A4, A2, Model 80, Model 20, R8, E2)
A 1200' (7") reel of tape running at 15 IPS will run 16 minutes. (Tascam 34, 32, Fostex A8, A8LR, A4, A2, Model 80, Model 20, R8, E2)

* I'm not sure if the Fostex E8, E16, etc., will run either 7" reels or 7.5 IPS, but if they can, more power to them! *

 

[grimtraveller]

I love this bit of Beatles lore, that's all true in fact, but keep in mind they were working with Studer J37, 1" 4-track machines,... a far cry from the cassette 4-track world. (Sorry 1987's Fostex X-15 advertisement! FAIL!

That advertising was a bit naughty !
I guess the principle was the same with 4 track portas, if not the actual capability and sound quality !!

 

[heatmiser]

Just putting in a vote for one 8-track cassette machine vs. two 4-tracks if it comes to that for you.

I've never used the 488s but a lot of people love 'em. I have a 688 and that thing is pretty incredible for what it is. Weighs like 40 lbs. and it is a bit overwhelming at first, but once you get the hang of the navigation and routing it's a breeze and the sound can be much better than you'd expect. The internal bouncing on that works pretty well.

4 tracks are cool too, and since you have a digi porta thing as well, why don't you play around with what you have in a hybrid sort of setup and see what works for you and what doesn't. You should be able to crank some pretty cool productions just with what you have now.

 

[heatmiser]

Hey Dave - the first two links of yours above don't work. The 3rd one was fine and it seemed to be kind of hit or miss after that...

 

[A Reel Person]

Ok, man. Thanks!

I wanted to avoid hitting all my links on my own page, but it may be necessary to proof and fix them. So much for relying on technology!

 

[A Reel Person]

What I found is...

Soundclick changed the URL of the player module, but the "linking tool" page was not updated to the new format. Go figure. What else I found, using the 1st link (Commando), is the original link would produce 404 Server Error, and shortly thereafter would automatically link forward to the correct URL and play the song anyway.

Nonetheless, I updated all the links with the correct URL format, and they should all play back fine now. It didn't require me hitting all the links. When I determined the format, I just pasted in the update. It's been a long time since I posted Soundclick links, and it did happen to me way back when I did it before. Being such a long time ago, I just forgot. I'll remember going forward.

If any links still don't play or have problems, please let me know!

Thanks!

 

[Beck]

Hello guys,

I'm new here so this is me breaking the ice

Hoi Fruscayerdrix! Welkom op het forum van Analog Only. Mijn liefie woont in Soest, Nederland maar ik in USA. Mijn oma komt uit Friesland. Ik spreek een beetje Nederlands.

But your English is better than my Dutch, so we better stick with that.

Yeah, I concur with the consensus that you won't damage your machine using normal bias cassettes, but you won't get good quality at all. They are really very different tapes even though they are in the same shell and will fit in the machine. Below is my eBay search of TDK SA and Maxell XLII available to the Netherlands. It will also bring up TDK SA-X. Stick with 60 and 90 minute tapes for the 424 and other cassette multitracks. Longer lengths are ok for standard stereo cassette recording. I've seen quite a bit in the UK and Germany come up lately. This search has American sellers as well. but shipping costs have gotten crazy when shipping from the USA to anywhere, including Canada. Hope that helps.

Cassette tdk sa , maxell xlii | eBay

The seller below has good 5-packs of TDK SA-90 from Mainz, Germany.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TDK-SA-90-C...i_Fi_Audiophile_Tonträger&hash=item4abce5f3d3

 

[Fruscayerdrix]

Soundclick changed the URL of the player module, but the "linking tool" page was not updated to the new format. Go figure. What else I found, using the 1st link (Commando), is the original link would produce 404 Server Error, and shortly thereafter would automatically link forward to the correct URL and play the song anyway.

Nonetheless, I updated all the links with the correct URL format, and they should all play back fine now. It didn't require me hitting all the links. When I determined the format, I just pasted in the update. It's been a long time since I posted Soundclick links, and it did happen to me way back when I did it before. Being such a long time ago, I just forgot. I'll remember going forward.

If any links still don't play or have problems, please let me know!

Thanks!

I listened to some of your tracks and the recordings sound really good. This whole cassette thing isn't all that crazy Thanks for posting them.
I've been playing around with mine today and i'm really surprised at how clean the recordings sound (even with my submediocre skills!). I tried a couple of different mics, different settings; the recording process itself is really intuitive (a bit overwhelming a first though). I'm a happy camper.

Just one question. When i start recording i set the monitoring (effect and tape cue) switches to their right position so i can hear what's going on, but what do i do when i've finished recording? When i'm playing back a song i can adjust the track volume with the sliders, the effect 2 knob, plus i can listen to it with the monitoring switch in the L-R position, or the mono position and they both give totally different sounds with signals sometimes almost disappearing due to the volume of other tracks. What the most neutral or realistic way to listen to a freshly recorded song?

Hoi Fruscayerdrix! Welkom op het forum van Analog Only. Mijn liefie woont in Soest, Nederland maar ik in USA. Mijn oma komt uit Friesland. Ik spreek een beetje Nederlands.

But your English is better than my Dutch, so we better stick with that.

Yeah, I concur with the consensus that you won't damage your machine using normal bias cassettes, but you won't get good quality at all. They are really very different tapes even though they are in the same shell and will fit in the machine. Below is my eBay search of TDK SA and Maxell XLII available to the Netherlands. It will also bring up TDK SA-X. Stick with 60 and 90 minute tapes for the 424 and other cassette multitracks. Longer lengths are ok for standard stereo cassette recording. I've seen quite a bit in the UK and Germany come up lately. This search has American sellers as well. but shipping costs have gotten crazy when shipping from the USA to anywhere, including Canada. Hope that helps.


The seller below has good 5-packs of TDK SA-90 from Mainz, Germany.

Hi thank you for the welcome. I was born in Friesland, but i've lived in Amsterdam for the last couple of years. I've actually dated a girl from Soest for a while so i know it pretty well. I hope we're not talking about the same girl here
Thx for pointing out those ebay-sellers.


Edit: Ugh, there's a couple of 488's on Ebay, but neither will ship to Europe. Damn that Atlantic Ocean

 

[TASCAM MAN]

welcome



i wouldn't use type i cassettes in a recorder that was made specifically for high bias type ii cassettes. (that actually makes me cringe when i see a listing/auction for a recorder with a type i tape in it)
The transport section in your tascam 424mkiii is designed for type ii tapes and you should not use anything but those tapes. You can get away with it, but you are using a medium that screams for high bias. You can however use them in your mixdown deck but i wouldn't do that either...especially if you already paid a decent amount of cash for your type ii tapes that go in your multitracker. You would be "stepping down" in sound quality.
If you do not care that much about what you are recording..you can do what you will.
I personally only use my type ii tapes in one pass only and very rarely perform a "bounce" of tracks...but that is just my preference.
You can use a type ii several times before you will start to notice a quality loss depending on the type of brand you use.
There are still plenty of listings for "lots" of type ii tapes out there..ya just gotta have a keen eye and catch a "sleeper bid".
The ur90's that you speak of will produce a whole lot of low end without any highs.
I know these tapes are still readily and widely available,...but imo you should save your cash and grab some more type ii's.
I started stocking up on type ii cassettes when "the digital era" hit and everyone was getting rid of their analog gear/tape at dirt cheap prices...but now the price of these tapes have gone up due to crazy uneducated _bay sellers pricing them that way assuring everyone that they are rare. The same goes for reel tape.
I wish you nothin' but good vibes with your new analog recorder and your future recording endeavors.
Get rid of that dp-02 and buy yourself some high bias tapes with the cash!:d

here's an old pic of my stash that has grown 4 x's larger than this since i started gathering them. So yeah,..you can definitely still find them at a decent price...ya just gotta put a little work into searchin' for the right lot.

im jealous , my stash isnt quite as big as yours man man man im getting more !!:d

 

[TASCAM MAN]

Fruscayerdrix, welcome to the Analog den!

Something else you may want to check out is "Musicians Friend" catalog for Type II cassettes.

Years ago, I bought a few 10 packs of 15 minute tapes. You can easily fit one or two songs per tape....taping on A side only. Cheaper buying bulk.

Go with shorter tape lengths....the tapes are a tiny bit thicker, and will last years longer than 90s.

A shorter tape length, at the highest speed, will give you all the Highs and Lows that your machine, and your ears; can handle.


Hope this helps!


Don't you just love that 424?

do you know what brand tape at "Musicians Friend" these shorts' are equivelent to? And I do agree that6 the shorter formats(as long as it is TypeII) are more feasibble to use and easier to "log" your songs

 

[TASCAM MAN]

Check out TapeStockOnline

 

[A Reel Person]

Thanks for listening and your comments!

In general you'd use the Tape Cue monitor while recording and overdubbing tracks.

After you've filled up the tape tracks, you switch off the Tape Cue monitor, select Channels 1-4 Inputs to Tape, and then mixdown the recording using the main section of the mixer, with the faders, EQ, Aux/Effects Sends, etc., to your heart's desire.

You'll learn the ropes very quickly, because it's engineered to be simple and intuitive as possible.

 

[Slowrider]

do you know what brand tape at "Musicians Friend" these shorts' are equivelent to? And I do agree that6 the shorter formats(as long as it is TypeII) are more feasibble to use and easier to "log" your songs

I never tried to find out the brand name, I know they hold up pretty well. Better than some of my old reels from the 60s.

 

[ecc83]

"Just wondering, what does 'bias' mean? I know the best way to go is the high bias type, but i actually have no idea what it's supposed to mean. "

Nobody else going to have a crack at this? Ok...

In addition to the audio signal that you would expect to be fed to the record head an HF "bias" signal usually between 40kHz and 120kHz is also impressed upon it. This has the effect of vastly increasing the sensitivity of the recording process and linearizing the signal to greatly reduce distortion.

But different tape formulations. i.e. the oxides used, have different requirements for this bias. Very generally, those compounds that are rated as "high" output need a higher bias level (specified for servicing as a current thru the head winding).

But bias is a double edged sword. Yes it reduces distortion but it also "erases" HF and so a balance has to be struck twixt MOL (max op level), distortion (used to be 3%thd at 0VU, probably better than that with todays tapes?)and HF response.
It is well known that the type 2 "chrome" tapes need much higher bias than older ferrics but as tapes get ever better we began to see limitations in the recorders. Some did not have enough bias in hand and some could not deliver the higher recording levels without the amplifiers cracking. On the replay side, some machines, almost all cassetttes, could not handle the very high replay levels possible with the new, higher MOL tape formulations.

In the absence of specialized equipment you can make a fair stab at biasing a tape if you get 300Hz and 12kHz playing back at the same level. This is for cassette and since it needs to be done at -20dB* ref Dolby, tricky to see on a VU meter! Use a computer DAW.

*Because at such very low speeds even the best of tapes start to "squash" at a very low level.

Dave (Kevlar hat on!)

 

[TASCAM MAN]

"Just wondering, what does 'bias' mean? I know the best way to go is the high bias type, but i actually have no idea what it's supposed to mean. "

Nobody else going to have a crack at this? Ok...

In addition to the audio signal that you would expect to be fed to the record head an HF "bias" signal usually between 40kHz and 120kHz is also impressed upon it. This has the effect of vastly increasing the sensitivity of the recording process and linearizing the signal to greatly reduce distortion.

But different tape formulations. i.e. the oxides used, have different requirements for this bias. Very generally, those compounds that are rated as "high" output need a higher bias level (specified for servicing as a current thru the head winding).

But bias is a double edged sword. Yes it reduces distortion but it also "erases" HF and so a balance has to be struck twixt MOL (max op level), distortion (used to be 3%thd at 0VU, probably better than that with todays tapes?)and HF response.
It is well known that the type 2 "chrome" tapes need much higher bias than older ferrics but as tapes get ever better we began to see limitations in the recorders. Some did not have enough bias in hand and some could not deliver the higher recording levels without the amplifiers cracking. On the replay side, some machines, almost all cassetttes, could not handle the very high replay levels possible with the new, higher MOL tape formulations.

In the absence of specialized equipment you can make a fair stab at biasing a tape if you get 300Hz and 12kHz playing back at the same level. This is for cassette and since it needs to be done at -20dB* ref Dolby, tricky to see on a VU meter! Use a computer DAW.

*Because at such very low speeds even the best of tapes start to "squash" at a very low level.

Dave (Kevlar hat on!)

Ugh....did you mean to answer your own question I mean yeah you sound like you answered better are at least more technical than anybody else could Ok all I know is that when "Chrome"(later on they called them Type 1,typeII etc etc) cassettes came out it was like heaven in quality,output was hotter and tape sounded so much brighter and crispier and just GREAT compared to a normal bias(known as type 1 later) tape. I dont recal reel to reel tapes called "normal are high bias" tape but alls i know is when Ampex went from 456 to 499, it was like nite and day to me,it was kind of like going from a "normal bias" to a "high bias" tape to me. And i dont know a lot of the technical side but alls i know is that HIGH BIAS tape sounded crispier and could take hotter signals without noticable distortion. Even if i didnt go and have my tape decks recalibrated/realigned it still didnt matter,"chrome" are "type II" always sounds better,quieter,crispier and even the low end is tighter !! Maxell XLII always and still always sounds the best on all of my tape decks!!
my 2 cents...

 

[TASCAM MAN]

I never tried to find out the brand name, I know they hold up pretty well. Better than some of my old reels from the 60s.

Man I think I will order me the 10 pack (and see what they sound like) of 15 min. ones....the short lengths sound very practical to me !!!

 

[ecc83]

Ugh....did you mean to answer your own question I mean yeah you sound like you answered better are at least more technical than anybody else could Ok all I know is that when "Chrome"(later on they called them Type 1,typeII etc etc) cassettes came out it was like heaven in quality,output was hotter and tape sounded so much brighter and crispier and just GREAT compared to a normal bias(known as type 1 later) tape. I dont recal reel to reel tapes called "normal are high bias" tape but alls i know is when Ampex went from 456 to 499, it was like nite and day to me,it was kind of like going from a "normal bias" to a "high bias" tape to me. And i dont know a lot of the technical side but alls i know is that HIGH BIAS tape sounded crispier and could take hotter signals without noticable distortion. Even if i didnt go and have my tape decks recalibrated/realigned it still didnt matter,"chrome" are "type II" always sounds better,quieter,crispier and even the low end is tighter !! Maxell XLII always and still always sounds the best on all of my tape decks!!
my 2 cents...

Seems like I needed the hat!
Someone asked the question, I answered it to the best of my ability. I am sure there are others here more qualified than I. In any case I gave up frigging about with tape machine setup 20yrs ago! My Sony S cassette has built in calibration and I leave my Teac A3340 tfalone because I no longer have the equipment to do a proper job!

Dave.