Recording tight heavy guitar

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ttbaron

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I am currently recording guitars for our new CD and am ready to sell everything I own and start playing banjo! I cannot seem to achieve the right overall sound from micing my cabinet. I use a Rocktron Chameleon, EQ and a BBE sonic maximizer through an all tube 20/20 Mesa Boogie power amp into a 3/4 back 2X12 Black Shadow Mesa cabinet. This has an absolutely unreal, heavy and tight sound when playing and just listening and I know it's because the frequencies mix well farther out. I have done everything possible with mic positions, mic combinations, multi-tracking and it still seems week compared to the same rack gear into an old solid state Peavey combo. The Peavey sounds super heavy and mics quite accurately. I need two different sounds and the Mesa cabinet can't even approach the heaviness and clarity of the Peavey. I realize the solid state to tube difference, but why is it so different and why would one mic so much more accurately. I've tried the POD and POD 2 and don't like either - it's too synthetic and bassy even with EQ. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
 
Mics and pres/mixer

If you are digging the sound of the Boogie in the room,but not hearing that same sound on your recording,thereis only one conclusion to draw: the mic and or preamp/mixer you are using is failing to accurately portray the sound of your rig to tape/disc.Mics and preamps are a lot like musical instruments,really,it takes time to get to know them and appreciate the unique sonic character each has while at the same time watching out for the weak points.If you are getting better results with your Peavey,this suggests to me that the mic/preamp/mixer chain you use is a better "mate" for the sound that the Peavey is putting out.I'm guessing that you wouldn't have posted if you were happy with this state of affairs,though,right?SOOO,next step is to try and borrow/rent/buy a few different mics and maybe a preamp or two and try out different combinations 'till what's on tape is closer to that glorious Boogie tone in the room.Suggestions: MICS:Shure SM-57,ElectroVoice RE-20,Audix OM Series,AKG 414,Rode NT-1/2.Pres:ART Tube PAC,Dual MP,Event EMP-1,Joe Meek VCQ Series. Mixer:Mackie.
 
Blinded by the Light

ttbaron -
I have rarely, if ever, gotten the perfect guitar sound - still searchin myself.

But if you don't put something down and mix it, you will never know. Sounds like you got hella gear. Work with what you've got, and enjoy it.
 
How many rhythm guitar tracks are you recording? Personally I need around 4-6 to get anywhere near a decent guitar sound
 
Right on C-Man -
Uno R-track for me> I am somewhat anti-guitar and prefer to utilise other elements in the rhythm section.
 
loud and clear

Thanks for the input. By the way, I'm using SM 57's and running through a Mackie 1604 VLZ mixing board. I have thought about laying down more than two tracks per rhythm and will try that next. Any other suggestions on a good mic preamp that can help?
 
I love my Mackie, but the vanilla pre's aren't well suited for mic'ing guitar amps in my experience. As for other preamps, Joe Meek users seem to love 'em for guitars.
 
Are both cabinets vented the same?

Alot of times an amp with an open back will sound great in the room because of the mix of direct, and refracted/vented sound. Unfortunately you'll never capture this sound totally, But you can come close with a combination of close by adding room mics.

Because you say your looking for a tight sound, I personally would borrow a cabinet with 10 inch speakers. I have a Marshall 4x10 that I use for crunchy, and a Princeton Chorus 2x10 that I use for clean. This is a personal preference, but I've always found 12s kind of flabby sounding. The extra air they push makes them sound fuller in a room, but when you mic them live or in studio, they've got kind of a honky quality.

Lastly, and I might get laughed at for this, try recording direct. It works great for abrasive techno or industrial. I run take the preamp out off the Princeton, and feed it right to the board. Insert a tight gate, and compress it with a fairly long attack setting, and you'll get a nice Trent Reznor circa Pretty Hate Machine sound.

Jeff
 
Do a search somwhere down this forum is a thread called "Heacy guitar sound" or something like that.
You'll find a LOT of info there.

I personally record two tracks (using a tube guitar amp) and pan each one right and left (Not all the way!)

-nilbog
 
I always treat guitar parts as separate units. One sound will work in a chorus yet another will work in a verse and should be recorded differently and the buildup of parts creates the sound - the chorus sound might be made up of three guitar sounds all recorded separately and mixed together - from what you say you should be pleased that the units you've got create different sounds for different parts cos there's really is no killer guitar sound - its playing with the sounds and creating your sound, Take the favourite sound from one and add it to the favourite sound from the other, get the variety - oh - and its relavence to the song etc.
cheers
john:D
 
Success!!

I tried this and it works great:

I'm using sounds from both the Mesa cabinet and the Peavey combo - running them both out of my power amp. I have 2 SM57's on one speaker of the cabinet and 1 SM57 and 1 SM58 (ran out of 57's!) on the Peavey. The mics are backed up about 7-8" on the top two corners of each miced speaker. It's great to have the options going through the mixing board of which sounds to boost and which to cut. Oh yeah, I also realized that the cables from the board to my computer sucked so I got an expensive monster cable and damn if this isn't the best sound!!! Thanks for all the response. When I complete the CD, I'll post a link to my site so you can check out some samples.
 
Aaaah, the serendipidious and puzzling realm of recording electric guitar.
Two things I do know (I think):
Be patient....it's a hard thing to get a great guitar sound (especially your own) down. It's all about the mic(s) and its placement.
And, for what ever reason, huge sounds often come out of little speakers. It is hard to cram the beautiful 112db coming out of an open backed 4x12 into the tiny diaphragm of a couple o' 57's. I've gotten some of my best tones to tape with little Princetons.
But, serendipidy being what it is.....when you find the sweet spot go with it. It's hard to gauge your own sound, if possible have some trusted ears around to help engineer and listen to them. Good Luck!
 
i'm assuming heavy refers to heavy as in distorted

this setup works for me for heavier distortions:

San-Amp GT-2:
Vol = 12oClock
Any Distorted Setting
of course you can use any Distortion Box you like

Marshall JBM-800-50W Combo, Clean Channel, driving the Stock Speaker and a 4x12 cabinet-in another room-loaded with 25W Greenbacks. for feedback, the JBM-800 is in the same room i'm playing in.

JCM-800 settings
Chnl Vol = 1.5 or just after a significant vol increase, keep the vol setting low. it's still loud.
Treb = 10 oClock
Bass = 3 oClock
Master Vol = Full up

i mic the JCM-800 Combo with a SM-57-off axis, and the Greenbacks with a AT4033 or another SM-57, just depends on what i need at the time.

each mic has it's own track and these are paned hard left and right or mix'd to taste and to this mix i add a teeny-tiny bit of chorus, you can't tell it's Chorus'd at all, but it really add's some dimension to the tones. do this to taste. then maybe a bit of small room reverb. again. just a bit. a little goes a long ways.

-kp-
 
I think throwing in a couple of tracks of banjo might sound good alongside some heavy guitars.

-jett rocker
 
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