recording live performance w/camcorder

  • Thread starter Thread starter LI_Slim
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LI_Slim

LI_Slim

voice in the wilderness
I am taking the plunge into buying a digital camcorder, and I want to make sure I'll be able to use it to get a good live recording of a 1-3 person acoustic act (up to two guitars plus drums) in a particular small venue. There is a pa system (an aging Peavy powered mixer and two speakers) which is appropriate for the venue. The drums are not miced and the overall sound from the acoustic guitars and vocals is partially through the speakers and partially through the air. So I am assuming for this situation that I will be recording through a mic or two rather than line in from the mixer, although I suppose a combination might be possible.

There seem to be some excellent consumer digital camcorders on the market in the $1,000 range. They all seem to have a 16-bit, 2 channel audio option and all seem to have crappy built-in mics. They seem to have only 1/8-inch audio input jacks and no other way to plug in a mic (or mixer), which concerns me; Obviously one can get decent quality with a 16-bit digital recording but I'm worried about the links between the air and the machine. I have some nice large condensor, small condensor and dynamic mics already. I do not have a mixer other than another powered mixer.

So, what should I make sure I have in buying the camcorder and how do you suggest I set it all up?

I know I'm asking for a lot in one thread but feel free to answer all or part of the question!!
 
Canon makes a great DV

I think there is the XL1 and the GL2, if im not mistaken.....

I am using the ZR50 I love it...

Here is a link...

Im not very smart with these things, but wanted to help..

http://www.canondv.com/
 
alright

if you are looking to get good sound quality on the tape, here is a technique, but it may require some research on your part.

1. get a good video card that supports the usb or firewire from your digital camera

2. get a video editing software program. adobe premier is really good.

3. get the studio recorded songs of the band and mix them down in the video editing program(i'm asuming you can get a studio mix cause you are in a recording music forum). you can also mix in screaming and cheering from the crowd copied from a live concert video.

kind of like the porn movies. youre imagination will guide you through the rest. just check out some video editing forums.

maybe this wasn't what your were looking for, but if it is i hope i was able to help a little
 
Well, actually, I want an authentic live recording. I also doubt I ever play my songs at exactly the same tempo twice!! But thanks for a very interesting idea. It also gives me an idea for a new website: www.pornrecording.com ;)
 
In a jam I have used my DV for field recording -- mostly sounds of the city, conversations, building sites, etc. Then put them in the computer via firewire, imported into sonar and converted to wave. The sound was VERY good. I used a stereo field mic plugged into the 1/8th inch. The only other thing I had was a cassette recorded and it was terrible in comparison.

It is a sony I forget which one, bought it 1 year ago, was the only one with a megapixel still shot.
 
LI_Slim said:
Well, actually, I want an authentic live recording. I also doubt I ever play my songs at exactly the same tempo twice!!
Click to expand...

You can still have an authentic live recording and do what jugalo180 is suggesting. Just record a live session of the group( the same session you video tape), mix and master it and then edit it into the video. You'll need help but will end up with a better product.
 
I suggest looking for a three CCD camera and recording the audio separately to CDR. Just this reporters opinion.

a really cheap 3 CCD camera is the one from SONY that I recorded the Jamfest with. Samples available. Just e-mail me.
 
I used to have an older high end Cannon Hi8 and it had pretty good sound and a built in stereo mic. The new Sony DV's are very nice but I haven't used the built in mics on them. The biggest problem with mics on the camera is that they can pick up the camera noise.

Almost all except the high end prosumer cams like the Sonys and Cannons will have 1/8 jacks. I haven't priced them in awhile but as I recall they started around $3K. You might be able to get a good deal on a used one.
 
They seem to have only 1/8-inch audio input jacks and no other way to plug in a mic (or mixer), which concerns me;
Click to expand...

LI_Slim, you are right that you can get good quality audio out of the new digital camcorders. There are a few things you need to keep in mind.

First all most camcorders have an automatic AGC so they can sound compressed and will try and ride the gain during quite audio passages. You can work with it but just be aware of that this will happen.

But the best advice I can give you and the best money you will ever spend is to invest in an audio device that adapts standard xlr signals to your camcorder. This will solve both your 1/8" problem and it also handles impedance matching and line to mic audio levels.

There are two companies that make products that you consider.

The first is the BeachTek (which is the one I went with) and probably the most popular. I think they were the first to come out with this kind of device. They are well made and work great.

The thing I like about the BeachTek is it mounts right to the bottom of your camcorder. So you can just leave it there installed all the time.
BeachTek

The second is the Studio1 products. I haven't worked with their products but my guess is they are pretty good. The Studio1 models use a beltclip.
Studio1

LI_Slim, these devices are passive. Meaning they are mixers but they do have have any gain, they only attenuate the maximium gain that you feed them. You can plug a mic directly into these but a low level dynamic wont give you enough gain to drive a camcorder. The BeachTek will allow you feed either a mic or line signal into it. I often take a line level feed out of a board and feed the camcorder.

I can give you more info if want but check out these sites and I think you will get a good idea of how this works. Hope this helps.

Lee
 
That sounds like a good job for a Behringer Shark DSP110. It takes XLR and 1/4", in and out, and you can match either way, so you can run an XLR mic in, 1/4" out or Vice Versa...plus you can Gate, Compress, Compensate for delay in long cable runs and offer Phantom power for Condensers. They also have built-in Feedback destroyers, but i don't think there would be much use for that in your situation. I got one for the Lead singer in our band...because I needed more level, less feedback. Well worth the $70 or less cost.
 
Lee, thanks very much! That's what I was looking for. Two questions: first, about what do these babies cost? Second, if I am plugging a condensor mic into these, do I need to supply some phantom power? What's the simplest way to do that?
 
Looks like the run around $159 to a $189. Here is just one place I found, you might look around but I think this is basically the price.

beachtek

And yes will need an external phantom power supply. If you need info on this let me know, I think there are a couple of companies that make these.

Also if you are Do it Yourselfer here is a page with some go info on building a simply adapter. There needs to be a blocking cap because most of the cameras (at least I know the sony does) puts voltage on this plug to power their camera mounted shotgun mics.

DIY Camcorder adapter

While I like DIY projects the Beachtek is well built and the fact that it simply mounts to the bottom of the camera and is always there is has a lot of value in my mind.

Hope this helps.

Lee
 
Again it seems to me that the Behringer Shark DSP110 would be a perfect candidate for this. I just picked up 3 more today, as I find them very usefull. They do provide Phantom power, and convert between XLR and 1/4" jacks...or straight through, according to need, with a preamp, Gate, Compressor...seems to me it would be a perfect buddy for use with a camcorder. I just paid $69 each at Mars Music...in stock. No need for extra devices. You might need an adapter for you camera..as it's probably RCA, or possible 1/8" I/O, but you could get a good mono sound with one of these guys, or get a pair, and run two mics. They are very small...about palm sized, and relatively simple to operate.

I'm surprised that more people don't use these. I find it to be a major plus for our singer, because he doesn't have alot of low end in his voice, but with this I can keep his levels up without feedback...plus EQ him at the mixer...again...without feedback.

Tom Kemp
 
Thanks Tom. Looks like a good idea.

Lee, what do you think, any downside to using the Behringer?
 
Slim, I am not that familiar but based on your question I did a little research.

First the Shark looks pretty cool and it definitely has some features I could use for FOH applications. The price is right and seems to be packed with some of the things you need, like phantom power, mic to line etc.

There are a couple of questions I would want answered before I would make my decision.

- Does it really convert Mic to Mic levels ?
If I understand your application you do not need mic to line because you are going into a mic input on the camcorder.

- How big is this thing ?
I would assume that because you are using a camcorder that portability might be an issue. If you don't have a problem lugging more gear the this is not an issue.

- How many of these do you need ?
Won't you will need one of these for every mic ?

Slim if are you are willing to consider the Shark then you really open up a number of other options. My suggestion was based on size, simplicity and portability. But if these are not important then here is another option.

For $129 you could go with a Behringer mxb-1002 mixer. This would give you a 10 inputs (5 mic) and phantom power. Don't know much about this mixer but seems like a better solution than a rack full of the Sharks.
mxb-1002

The only issue is you need to build cable with a 20db pad to bring the line level down to a mic level. That link I gave you for the DIY cable would work but you need to add the ability to attenuate the signal down to a mic level. This only requires a couple of resitors so its not a big deal. Its taking the time to put it all together.

Slim, I hope I am not making this more complicated than you wanted. This is not my intention. :D

Lee
 
Yeah, a mixer might do the trick as well. You probably wouldn't have the built in compression, gating, etc., but you would have the phantom power and the ability for even more mics. Each Shark is for 1 mic only. They are very small, though. I have one in the studio already. It is 2" tall, 3 1/2" across and 4 1/2" deep...pretty small. I use it currently for XLR to XLR, though if I had a few more I would also use them for XLR to 1/4" jack, since a couple of my mics are now using XLR-to-1/4" adapters, due to lack of any more XLR ports on my mixers. It also has a +4db for switch for Mic vs. Line levels out.
 
If portability isn't an issue, here is what we do, and it won't set you back much. Use a standard VHS VCR, and take the video signal from any camcorder and send it direct to the VHS recorder. Then at the same time, take whatever signals for audio you want, such as direct line, mics, etc. and run them through a small mixer and output the mixer to the audio ins on the VHS recorder.

You won't be recording on the camcorder, but recording on the VHS recorder and the audio and video will be in sync. Stereo VHS recorders are down to about $60, camcorders are now under $250 (or less), small (used) Mackie or Behringer mixers are under $200 (if you don't have one already) and you still have lots left over for mics (even condensors) and with the mixer, will have phantom power available. Oh, and NO 1/8" jacks to worry about.

It limits your ability to move around and you need an area to set up, but the sound will be MUCH better.

Good luck!
 
If you go with Klaatu's suggestion be aware that many camcorders will not stay in "standby" or feed a video signal for long periods of time. They will time out and shut down.

On some camcorders you can open the tape door and that will prevent it from timing out and shutting down. Others require a tape to be in the machine and moving or it will timeout.

The advantage of using a camcorder is all digital video formats (DVC) now record timecode so if you plan on doing any editing this might be very helpful.

Also recording to a VCR will never give you the quality of a digital video recorder. But by using a firewire connection from the DVC to your computer you can get a digital to digital copy without loss. Do all of your editing on the computer and then go back to the DVC or VCR and you a get single generation quality for your master.

"Klaatu borada nikto" :)

Lee
 
20 db is correct. What we do is actually record on the camcorder itself with a tape in it, but take the video signal from the output of the camcorder and run it to the VCR. We don't take the audio from it, but instead take the audio from the mixer. We wind up with the camcorder having the video and audio from the camcorder itself, which in our case is a Hi-8 camcorder. The quality of the camcorder tape is basically "bootleg one camera concert video" if you know what I mean.

By dumping the video from the camcorder and audio from the mixer to a separate VHS VCR we sacrifice a little on the video side to capture an acceptable video but wind up with better audio. Or to put it more accurately, we work with what we already have! We don't edit, so timecode isn't an issue. We just do it because it's cool to have a video record of a performance.
 
Recording to 1/8 mic input jack

This is not the best solution, but it's cheap and it works.

I have had good success with an 1/8 inch headphone volume control from Radio Shack (couple bucks), this is then plugged into an 1/8 inch to RCA adaptor cable for a portable CD player. I then plug this into the RCA outputs of my mixer.
I then use a high quality pair of headphones plugged into the camcorder. The trick is to slowly bring up the volume until it sounds good... but no more. This forces the Automatic Level Control to "gain up" all the way... so when things get soft there is no more gain available in the camera. It works surprisingly well. What I hear in the headphones is what I hear when I get home.

Make sure you get a cable and not a plastic adaptor... you want as little weight as possible on the 1/8 connection, or it will crackle.

An XLR to 1/8 specialty adaptor is best, but this is much cheaper.

Hope this helps,
Chaz
 
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