B
Burden of Proof
New member
truer words never spoken (typed)
Can we make this the tagline for this site?chessrock said:
Jack Russell
I smell home cookin!
chessrock said:Well . . . assuming you've got more than one member in your bad, that would actually come out to about $160 per head. That won't even get you a decent budget condenser.
That's a freakin' bargain for a good demo or CD.
I'm being conservative on the 16 hours in a studio. That would probably yield 3 useful guitar/bass/drum tracks with no overdubs IF the band is organized and well practiced. You'd then have to pay more for the vocal parts, keys, or other added parts. Then there is the mixdown time, then mastering.
We (my band, that is) are talking eventually about doing a full-length CD of a dozen tunes (we have enough material for 3 actually), and we're not just a punk three-piece band bent on making noise, we have a lot of nuance. There will be backing vocals, lead guitar parts, possible keyboard parts, etc. So, what would that sort of project cost in a real studio? I would guess (at the $40/hr Acme Studio Inc. rate) about $8,000. Yes, I've already crossed the threshold of investment that was the minimum for buying the gear in the first place.
Is being a good recording engineer Rocket Science? That is the question. i don't think it is.
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Bartman
I count on me
Can't we all just get along?
Not sure if there is a right or wrong philosophy here. It all depends on the goal.
Can a home recordist compete with a reputable, referenceable, well resourced professional recording studio? No way! Can the home recordist put out decent stuff? Some can....and I guess it depends on your definition of decent.
What will the recording be used for? If you are shopping your original material to major record labels or embarking on a radio promotion campaign through a promoter (like HRP out of LA) you better have a fantastic polished product because 1) record company developmental funds are scarce these days....your material better be polished and 2) if and when you get air play, most PD's & listeners want to hear stuff that sounds as good as the other stuff that's already comercially released....plus "Cheap Channel" won't play your stuff unless you buy spins (don't get me started!).
If you are doing this from a hobbyist perspective (I read one post on here about a guy sending one of his songs to his grandmother), do the home recording gig and enjoy it. Learn from the smart guys on this forum and take it as far as you want.
One last point....there are also people out there who proclaim to have professional studios....some even have impressive looking facilities and some quality gear, but cheap out on their session engineers....often using low or no cost interns to run low rate sessions during "off hours" or unbooked regular hours. Professional studio doesn't always mean professional results.
Bart
Not sure if there is a right or wrong philosophy here. It all depends on the goal.
Can a home recordist compete with a reputable, referenceable, well resourced professional recording studio? No way! Can the home recordist put out decent stuff? Some can....and I guess it depends on your definition of decent.
What will the recording be used for? If you are shopping your original material to major record labels or embarking on a radio promotion campaign through a promoter (like HRP out of LA) you better have a fantastic polished product because 1) record company developmental funds are scarce these days....your material better be polished and 2) if and when you get air play, most PD's & listeners want to hear stuff that sounds as good as the other stuff that's already comercially released....plus "Cheap Channel" won't play your stuff unless you buy spins (don't get me started!).
If you are doing this from a hobbyist perspective (I read one post on here about a guy sending one of his songs to his grandmother), do the home recording gig and enjoy it. Learn from the smart guys on this forum and take it as far as you want.
One last point....there are also people out there who proclaim to have professional studios....some even have impressive looking facilities and some quality gear, but cheap out on their session engineers....often using low or no cost interns to run low rate sessions during "off hours" or unbooked regular hours. Professional studio doesn't always mean professional results.
Bart
Jack Russell
I smell home cookin!
Well said, Bart, well said. True. True.
We'll be looking for bookings at clubs with the first tracks. From my experience, club owners are the least picky about production quality. In most cases they won't listen past the first tune. They want to sell beer, and they don't care as long as you bring people in.
In most cases we would be splitting the bills with established bands, and then talking to the clubs about gigs. "Visit out site," we'd tell them, and mp3s would be there for them to check out.
As for getting signed by recording companys, my urge is to ignore them, since they've ignored anything I've done in the past.
Not that I'm bitter; it may be that the music I have done just isn't good enough. I can take rejection. Over and over and over....
We'll be looking for bookings at clubs with the first tracks. From my experience, club owners are the least picky about production quality. In most cases they won't listen past the first tune. They want to sell beer, and they don't care as long as you bring people in.
In most cases we would be splitting the bills with established bands, and then talking to the clubs about gigs. "Visit out site," we'd tell them, and mp3s would be there for them to check out.
As for getting signed by recording companys, my urge is to ignore them, since they've ignored anything I've done in the past.
Not that I'm bitter; it may be that the music I have done just isn't good enough. I can take rejection. Over and over and over....
Bartman
I count on me
Good Original material Versus "Marketable"
Hey Jack......take this from another 40+ rocker.....
Don't confuse good material with marketable material. Have you ever heard the story behind how "Hootie & The Blowfish" were signed? The original record exec wouldn't even give them a 2nd listen and was eventually fired after the band was signed!
A lack of success in marketing your material doesn't necessarily mean it isn't good. On the other hand, I can give you a complete discography of talentless drivel that is highly marketable. A record company can really do a very good job of polishing a turd, making it real shiny and marketable.....if they want to.....
Hey Jack......take this from another 40+ rocker.....
Don't confuse good material with marketable material. Have you ever heard the story behind how "Hootie & The Blowfish" were signed? The original record exec wouldn't even give them a 2nd listen and was eventually fired after the band was signed!
A lack of success in marketing your material doesn't necessarily mean it isn't good. On the other hand, I can give you a complete discography of talentless drivel that is highly marketable. A record company can really do a very good job of polishing a turd, making it real shiny and marketable.....if they want to.....
Blue Bear Sound
New member
In one sense, it definitely is because there's SO MUCH more to it than simply slapping up a mic "somewhere near" a sound source and hitting the RECORD button........ like anything, what most people perceive the process to be on the surface is only a fraction of everything that gets taken into account during a session.............Jack Russell said:
C
chessrock
Banned
Jack Russell said:
. . . And I think that's where the real trap is. It looks deceptively simple, until you really start digging in to it all. Companies like M-audio, Digidesign, etc. etc. all want you to think it's simple, and they spend a lot of money in marketing trying to convince you of that, in hopes that you'll buy their equipment. And of course the magazines all support that notion because these companies support them.
Being a bad AE takes almost no skill at all. But being a good AE is pretty tough stuff, actually.
Bartman
I count on me
Respectfully agree
I respectfully agree with Blue Bear.
Most home recordist...(myself falling into the middle end of this category) are either unconsciously incompetent (don't realize that they are not very good and don't know why), unconsciously competent (sometimes get good results by accident), or consciously incompetent (have finally figured out why they are not getting good results) whereas the experienced SE's are either consciously incompetent (make mistakes, but know why) or consciously competent (get good results and know why they are getting them).
Ignorance can be pure bliss.
I respectfully agree with Blue Bear.
Most home recordist...(myself falling into the middle end of this category) are either unconsciously incompetent (don't realize that they are not very good and don't know why), unconsciously competent (sometimes get good results by accident), or consciously incompetent (have finally figured out why they are not getting good results) whereas the experienced SE's are either consciously incompetent (make mistakes, but know why) or consciously competent (get good results and know why they are getting them).
Ignorance can be pure bliss.
Jack Russell
I smell home cookin!
BBS and Chessrock make some very good points. I agree, and admit that it is possible that I'm naive about some of the process.
But let's see if I can take this back to the original post:
If an artist/band, such as mine, had no other means than to record themselves using mics over a drum kit in an apartment living room in a city, with the bass guitar going direct and the guitar also going direct (using a GT-3 gizmo) into a DAW...with all overdubbing to be done later.
then the issues are:
1) electrical hum: How can you test the outlets and avoid it? The apartment is in a very old builiding.
2) noise from the street: we'll have to live with that. On the third floor, this might not be as bad.
3) room sound: in some cases, isn't a charactistic room sound for drums actually a positive aesthetic element? I once recorded a drummer on a brick patio outside on a sunny, breezy, day. I loved the sound of it; it had a openness to it that was very special, with the bass player (me) right beside it. During the pauses, the wind would swirl into the mix, very cool (for that particular song, of course). So, that is just an example of "environment" in a recording.
4) mics: we have a few Shure SM57s, 2 Avlex AVS80s, and an EV N/D 408. We'll aim these at the center of the heads and the edges of the cymbols, with one facing the kick, maybe a foot back from it, using 4-6, possibly with a overhead to suck up some highs.
5) Neighbors: We'll restict it to 1-hour sessions when they aren't home.
Are we doomed?
But let's see if I can take this back to the original post:
If an artist/band, such as mine, had no other means than to record themselves using mics over a drum kit in an apartment living room in a city, with the bass guitar going direct and the guitar also going direct (using a GT-3 gizmo) into a DAW...with all overdubbing to be done later.
then the issues are:
1) electrical hum: How can you test the outlets and avoid it? The apartment is in a very old builiding.
2) noise from the street: we'll have to live with that. On the third floor, this might not be as bad.
3) room sound: in some cases, isn't a charactistic room sound for drums actually a positive aesthetic element? I once recorded a drummer on a brick patio outside on a sunny, breezy, day. I loved the sound of it; it had a openness to it that was very special, with the bass player (me) right beside it. During the pauses, the wind would swirl into the mix, very cool (for that particular song, of course). So, that is just an example of "environment" in a recording.
4) mics: we have a few Shure SM57s, 2 Avlex AVS80s, and an EV N/D 408. We'll aim these at the center of the heads and the edges of the cymbols, with one facing the kick, maybe a foot back from it, using 4-6, possibly with a overhead to suck up some highs.
5) Neighbors: We'll restict it to 1-hour sessions when they aren't home.
Are we doomed?
C
chessrock
Banned
Jack Russell said:
Yes.
Just kidding. Honestly, it depends on what your expectations are.
C
Cloneboy Studio
.
Jack Russell said:
Drop a hundred or so on a good line conditioner. Use only one outlet for all the recording equipment. Use balanced cabling and devices EXCLUSIVELY. Spend some money on a few ground looping, hum canceling direct boxes and converters. Wow... we're talking 200-300 bucks right here.
Jack Russell said:
ANY noise is bad if it causes you to ruin a take. Imagine playing the perfect part and then realizing the mailman banging the mailbox shut ended up on it... and it is out of time.
You will want to at least shut windows and maybe seal them with that weather proofing, as well as hang a few heavy curtains. Shut all the doors that don't need to be open to minimize unwanted noises.
Jack Russell said:
Depends, but most rooms sound pretty nasty, especially if they are small.
Myself personally I would prefer to keep the wind away from my tracks.
Jack Russell said:
Man... I'd hate to deal with that particular limitation being a little bit of a microphone snob. Ummm... go for it?
Jack Russell said:
One hour sessions? Dude, that's hardly enough time to even warm up. Man, talk about crippling... the real stuff doesn't seem to happen until you've been recording for at least 2-3 hours. I dunno, that's just my experience.
Like I said before--you've heard my arguments against but you are willing to go ahead and do it your way. Why did you bother to ask for anything OTHER than advice for recording at home???? Next time when your mind is made up just ask the question you want to ask, instead of looking for support.
I've pointed out the downsides and how in the long and short run it will be cheaper and easier to record in a studio but you aren't convined. The only way to go now is--SHOW US. I'm not saying you can't do it (like some 'individuals' seem to think) but I want to hear it and hear about what went on during the sessions and HOW MUCH it cost you.
Then we can see the real answer to the APARTMENT VS. STUDIO question.
C
chessrock
Banned
Yea, I kinda' think his mind was already made up, and that he was just trying to drum up moral support.
hasbeen
New member
Cloneboy Studio said:I don't have a massive collection of works. I quit my day job only 4 months ago.
Well I work out of a studio (SOR Studios in Toledo, Ohio). My "measly" home recording setup consists of a 24 channel 8 buss Allen & Heath 248 and Alesis HD24XR, Cubase SX, Waves Diamond, and Wavelab. My personal instrument setup is mostly keyboard--Sequential Circuits Prophet 5 rev 3.2 w/ SCI MIDI modification, Korg Z1, Roland Juno 60, a Brian Moore i2 guitar and about 10 vintage stompboxes.
At the studio we have a Mackie HDR24/96 and Mackie D8B that is getting replaced next week with a DXB with dual UAD-1 cards. We got broken into twice in the last two weeks and are in a bit of a mess now with getting the insurance money and improving security.
I'll be honest with you here--most of the bands I record aren't very good. Of course I don't post those. 90% of the stuff I record is gangsta rap which I don't care for, and quite frankly most of them aren't what I considered to be talented. Just because they can sell drugs and afford to record doesn't mean they deserve to. But they pay and I'm a whore.
I'll accept your full apology when I post the finished Fire From July sessions I'm working on. Unfortunately due to the break in the session has had to take a few weeks hiatus. Please make sure to post some of your work so we can compare notes.
Your list of equipment and credits gives us a better perspective as to where your overabundant criticisms and condescending treatment of fellow posters is coming from. Now we can judge for ourselves the amount of credence we apply to your wealth of knowledge. Thank you very much for the post.
Although I don't come into these forums and act like I just hung the moon, I will be happy to post one of my songs for your perusal. And yes, we can compare notes. I find it unsettling, though, that you don't have ONE single song you can put up for us to hear, after all, you do sound like a very busy studio cat. But let me know when you are done with your "hiatus" and I'll keep my headphones handy!
C
Cloneboy Studio
.
hasbeen said:
Your welcome.
I assume *your* studio is fully kitted out with a Neotek or SSL console? Or maybe just a weak 32 channel Mackie that isn't fit to lick my A&H's power supply?
And of course you have a full complement of Pultec's--both program and midrange, as well as a Massive Passive, LA2A's on all 96 of your channels, a Cranesong STC-8 just for variety, 2108 pre's on all channels, some Adam S3 monitors and a wet bar... right?Yeah sure... Mr. HD24 and Mackie expert himself. That's what I got... no wait, I have the XR. ROFL Sorry but that is in the same class as my *home* recording equipment.
hasbeen said:
No, you just adopt other people's "problems" as your own. Very kind of you to play the hero!
hasbeen said:
If you paid attention I've posted stuff in the MP3 clinic. Guess you're not the expert on my life that you built yourself up to. I have plenty of songs for you to listen to. Nothing great.
By the way, I *AM* busy. Too bad the majority of the people I record are no good. I'm small time and I record for MONEY, and I'll record anyone that forks over the cash. I admit all the time that I'm a total recording whore and record tons of mediocre to bad (or worse) bands. There's precisely ONE band that I work with that I consider any good (Fire From July) and actually feel proud of what I do with them. Heck, a lot of what I do is RAP. Which I consider to be a very low form of music, if it is even music... which in most cases the stuff I get paid for ISN'T. It's just some dudes mumbling about killing cops and making money over beats they didn't even write.
Here are some sessions that I did over two and a half years ago using my old *home recording* setup. (I had to borrow the VF16 because my DP3, G4 system with Waves Gold had died due to bad PRAM... also depriving me of the MOTU 2408 MK II.)
These were done in a basement, recorded on a horrible Fostex VF16, Mackie 1604 VLZ, a bunch of SM57's, 2 SM81's and a Beta 52. Transferred to a underpowered PC and mixed in crappy Cool Edit Pro without the benefit of any decent plugins.
This is an industrial act I did last year:
A not-so-great pop punk band I did last year. Band had very little money but we managed to record 4 songs in about 8 hours:
A live recording I did a few months ago. The drummer made most of the decisions and wanted 'too loud' cymbals. They only wanted to pay 250 bucks for 9 songs mixed, so they get what they paid for.
I didn't record this (original recording was... extremely lo-fi), but I mixed it for 50 bucks as a favor... another industrial band:
And just so you can be the ULTIMATE expert on me, this is one of the first things I ever recorded in 1988--when I was 17--on a crappy 4 track cassette recorder. It was a joke band that some friends and I had making fun of people we found annoying.
http://maumeeguitar.com/audio/SMD Shiela's Fat 2003 Remix.mp3
Enjoy! I hope it gives you as much amusement as it gives me.
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hasbeen
New member
I figured you might take this approach and try to roast me for any gear I might be using, but you are missing the point. I don't go into these forums wagging my dick around like I am "moist pro." YOU DO! I don't claim to be an expert or try to give the impression that I'm something I am not. My Mackie licking your console's power supply? Why don't you just say that your daddy can beat up my daddy?Cloneboy Studio said:Your welcome.
And your point is? You talk around here like YOU are the one with a world class setup. I never claimed to be in anything but a project studio. I don't slam people for the choices they make. You do it all the time. I just wanted to know what YOU got and how YOU use it.Cloneboy Studio said:
Not other people's problems, my problems. I take offense on a personal level not just from this post, but from others I see from you here and there.Cloneboy Studio said:
I did do a search in the mp3 forum before, and did not find any posts by you. The only thing I found out of all your posts was a live recording you did.Cloneboy Studio said:
Thank you for posting some of your work. You are putting it out there and now you have a track record (sort of) for people to listen to, form their own opinion of, and use to put into perspective any input you have about the weather. Let's face it, you do a LOT of talkin round here (600 posts in 6 months) and I wanted to see you back up your gaping soundhole with some product. Not that you care, but in my opinion you are now walking the walk.
Earlier, you implied that I owe you an apology. Let me just say that I respect the fact that you posted your work here, and even ADMIRE the fact that you posted some stuff you don't consider to be your greatest hits. Whether I like your work or not is irrelevant. It is the fact that you are laying it on the line that gives you the right to criticise other in these forums. (my opinion)
As promised, here is a song I wrote and recorded in my PROJECT studio. I will keep an ear out for your Fire From July sessions.
The Seifer
Banned
I declare myself the winner of all arguments in this thread; I have T-Racks.
***end of argument***
***end of argument***
H
Han
New member
Guys, although a Neve 80 series console sounds better than a Mackie, all this talking about fancy gear is quite subjective.
Like Bruce says in his tagline, George M. will make better sounding recordings with a porta than a monkey with hi end gear, or something like that.
In 1996 I've bought a big DDA board and a two inch Otari machine, together with Lexicon and Neumann toys.
Yet the best sounding jazz recordings I have done was with a small Seck 1882 board, a Tascam MSR24S and a number of mics like the MD421 and other dynamics of the same quality. This was mainly because of the quality of the musicians.
If you're interested, you can find a fragment of that recording at my website under Jazz example 2 (The Troupe). And remember this was done with 'home recording' gear.
I've heard recordings from guys who did it in their basement, with minimal gear that sounded better than recordings from 'A studio's, like we call the hi end studio's here.
Like Bruce says in his tagline, George M. will make better sounding recordings with a porta than a monkey with hi end gear, or something like that.
In 1996 I've bought a big DDA board and a two inch Otari machine, together with Lexicon and Neumann toys.
Yet the best sounding jazz recordings I have done was with a small Seck 1882 board, a Tascam MSR24S and a number of mics like the MD421 and other dynamics of the same quality. This was mainly because of the quality of the musicians.
If you're interested, you can find a fragment of that recording at my website under Jazz example 2 (The Troupe). And remember this was done with 'home recording' gear.
I've heard recordings from guys who did it in their basement, with minimal gear that sounded better than recordings from 'A studio's, like we call the hi end studio's here.
Jack Russell
I smell home cookin!
Cloneboy Studio said:
Cloneboy: thanks for taking the time to give advice. I really appreciate it.
However, you need to read more and pay attention, dude. What I've said is that we'll be doing a 3-4 song demo first to use as a demo to get gigs, see how that goes, then we'll go on to a full-length CD using the same apartment set-up. If the sound isn't acceptable, then we will go the long route of building a studio space (in the country) over the coming months. So, the reason I posted this dilemma is to see what the experts (like you) think of it, and to make an informed decision.* So, we'll do this demo anyway, and I'll be glad to send the results to you, and then you can say "I told you so!" Or not.
*: "after all, this is all any self-concious entity should ask for"
-the series HAL 9000 computer
[PS: actually, that quote might not be completely accurate...but I'll use it anyway.
]
M
manning1
Banned
aaaaarrrggghhh....
my attitude jack is ...just have fun. you can get too serious with this stuff.
as an example , years ago i started with nothing....built up into a nice studio
using lots of nice gear, helped lots of people record who often had nothing,
then i got hit with helping family through difficult times, and people i cared
about dying around me due to old age which destroyed me to the core , had to sell off nice gear to help elder family...now i'm back with a small set up.
in summary ive used the hi end gear and the low.
and i identify with the guys who feel nostalgic for their first 4 track cassette machine. but overall we all only come this way once. thats CERTAINLY been drummed into me by whoever the great power up above is....
and even if you have just a radio shack mic and a pc with a crappy
sound card , try and get whats inside of you out songwise, and have fun.
and have fun whether you record in a broom closet or in a 300 dollar hour
studio in LA. in fact ive found some really weird things happen in my recording life...some times the great one up above blesses me with
better song ideas the less gear i have. its as if he is saying to me.
your getting too greedy fella. this has happened to me just too many times.
i hope the great one, jack, shines on your demos and you have lots of happiness and success wherever you record.
peace.
my attitude jack is ...just have fun. you can get too serious with this stuff.
as an example , years ago i started with nothing....built up into a nice studio
using lots of nice gear, helped lots of people record who often had nothing,
then i got hit with helping family through difficult times, and people i cared
about dying around me due to old age which destroyed me to the core , had to sell off nice gear to help elder family...now i'm back with a small set up.
in summary ive used the hi end gear and the low.
and i identify with the guys who feel nostalgic for their first 4 track cassette machine. but overall we all only come this way once. thats CERTAINLY been drummed into me by whoever the great power up above is....
and even if you have just a radio shack mic and a pc with a crappy
sound card , try and get whats inside of you out songwise, and have fun.
and have fun whether you record in a broom closet or in a 300 dollar hour
studio in LA. in fact ive found some really weird things happen in my recording life...some times the great one up above blesses me with
better song ideas the less gear i have. its as if he is saying to me.
your getting too greedy fella. this has happened to me just too many times.
i hope the great one, jack, shines on your demos and you have lots of happiness and success wherever you record.
peace.
Jack Russell
I smell home cookin!
Manning sounds frustrated.
No need to be frustrated, man. I'm just a white bread mayanaise blonde swede from Iowa, a tall dude who rocks out, drinks Absolute, and lives and dies with the fate of the Packers, game after game after game. The Pack rules with Mystery Science Theatre 3K. I'm just one of many lost souls who have thrown their brains against the wall of the Musick Biz and lost a few cells in the process...
And the Cards! Long live Albert Puhols and the guys! Beat Boston!!! Keep the curse alive!!!
Peace to you as well.
I shall now only use one emoticon for all posts, regardless of the context, feeling, or meaning intended: This will become symbolic in its own obtuse, yet profound way.
No need to be frustrated, man. I'm just a white bread mayanaise blonde swede from Iowa, a tall dude who rocks out, drinks Absolute, and lives and dies with the fate of the Packers, game after game after game. The Pack rules with Mystery Science Theatre 3K. I'm just one of many lost souls who have thrown their brains against the wall of the Musick Biz and lost a few cells in the process...
And the Cards! Long live Albert Puhols and the guys! Beat Boston!!! Keep the curse alive!!!
Peace to you as well.
I shall now only use one emoticon for all posts, regardless of the context, feeling, or meaning intended:
This will become symbolic in its own obtuse, yet profound way.Similar threads
