recording and selling drums for popular songs

G

Greenhousestudio

New member
I am a bit of a drummer and have joined in with the trend to record drum cover videos. I have my own studio and can get pretty decent results (sometimes)

My question is............... As drums (as far as I know) are not in the copywrite category. As per my probably out of date knowledge it was only melody, lyrics and the actual sound recording is covered by copywrite but as far as i know not drums.

I just done a recording of R.E.M. its the end of the world as we know it. The drums are not too shabby and I now have a decent recording of the drums for that song. Im sure some guitarists would like to have this recording so they can jam along with it as most of the stuff out there is midi and sounds a bit shit.

So, would I be able to sell backing tracks for this song and others with just the drums recordings. Its for shuar a bit cheeky to say the least but is it someting that I can do ?
 
spantini said:
I can offer no personal knowledge, but I will post this for reference - drums are discussed near the end : http://copyright.nova.edu/copyrightable-song-parts/
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thanks for the input. seams it may require a beat And a melody to be copywrited however having the entire structure of the song recorded could perhaps be included (although my playing is not the exact same as the origonal recordings so whilst the structure is very similar, what Im actually playing is not exact to the song. Hmmmmm. Im still confused :)
 
Greenhousestudio said:
thanks for the input. seams it may require a beat And a melody to be copywrited however having the entire structure of the song recorded could perhaps be included (although my playing is not the exact same as the origonal recordings so whilst the structure is very similar, what Im actually playing is not exact to the song. Hmmmmm. Im still confused :)
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My takeaway is it's ok to exactly reproduce drum parts which don't act as the melody of a song or performance, such as guitar or vocals might. IOW, as long as the song has other melodic instruments in it, the drums are relieved of being the melody and are free to be copied (sampled is another matter).
 
spantini said:
My takeaway is it's ok to exactly reproduce drum parts which don't act as the melody of a song or performance, such as guitar or vocals might. IOW, as long as the song has other melodic instruments in it, the drums are relieved of being the melody and are free to be copied (sampled is another matter).
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I was hoping that would be the case. Ive got all the stuff to record full audio so I defo wouldnt be using samples. The other question would be would anyone actually be interested in buying them as there are many other options out there already. I sold some beats for some stealers wheels songs years ago to one guy who just wanted to jam along to them. I did that on an electric kit using midi but having audio could be better sound (so long as i dont mess up the playing)
 
I'm just guessing.. but I would think there would be more of a market for your drumming skills in the form of an online session drummer - working from places such as Fiverr or SoundBetter. You could still apply your copied drum parts as befitting the songs.
 
spantini said:
I'm just guessing.. but I would think there would be more of a market for your drumming skills in the form of an online session drummer - working from places such as Fiverr or SoundBetter. You could still apply your copied drum parts as befitting the songs.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I've heard of Fiverr but never looked at it properly. Might put up a profile and see what happens. Cheers dude
 
Be very careful. My son had drum lessons for years and he wanted to learn to read drum music, that’s where the money is. His teacher didn’t mind what style so they bought REd hot chilli peppers drum music and it is 100% protected and has all the same warnings and copyright statements. There are also a few legal cases you can look at. British TV had a popular advert with a gorilla playing the well known Phil Collins drum intro. Instantly identifiable, and proof that rhythm is a valid and protected component. If you register a recording in the UK with the copyright authorities here, and the US system mirrors ours I think, the drop down boxes of instruments include percussion. So the protection has the feature of allowing copyright protection and fees to go to John Smith, Drums.

making it very evidential was a recent British TV show, where clips of drums were one question, with contestants Identifying the song. Enough for me to be positive that the copyright in their work could easily be proven, and drums are 100% protected. In practice, my guess is that thump, crack, thump, crack four on the floor patterns are NOT protected as far too generic, but their fills or cleverer ha hat patterns might be, and even styles, like Ringo, always being a bit late on the back beat, could be!

the minute your drums move away from drum machine rigidness, and have a human characteristic, then they’re protected.
 
rob aylestone said:
Be very careful. My son had drum lessons for years and he wanted to learn to read drum music, that’s where the money is. His teacher didn’t mind what style so they bought REd hot chilli peppers drum music and it is 100% protected and has all the same warnings and copyright statements. There are also a few legal cases you can look at. British TV had a popular advert with a gorilla playing the well known Phil Collins drum intro. Instantly identifiable, and proof that rhythm is a valid and protected component. If you register a recording in the UK with the copyright authorities here, and the US system mirrors ours I think, the drop down boxes of instruments include percussion. So the protection has the feature of allowing copyright protection and fees to go to John Smith, Drums.

making it very evidential was a recent British TV show, where clips of drums were one question, with contestants Identifying the song. Enough for me to be positive that the copyright in their work could easily be proven, and drums are 100% protected. In practice, my guess is that thump, crack, thump, crack four on the floor patterns are NOT protected as far too generic, but their fills or cleverer ha hat patterns might be, and even styles, like Ringo, always being a bit late on the back beat, could be!

the minute your drums move away from drum machine rigidness, and have a human characteristic, then they’re protected.
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I hear ya. In the case of written notation that is for shure as a drummer I've always found it to be a bit shit that drums weren't supposed to be included in the money side of making songs. Of all the original bands I've been in I've found my contribution to creative a feel for songs and helping with transitions from verse to chorus etc has been as influencial as other bands members however the melody and lyrics get all the kudos .

I'd have thought by now there would be a nice simple way to record and sell backing tracks for songs by perhaps giving a large percentage of every sell direct to the copywrite holders and the excess would be collected for a job well done . But it seams you have to hunt out permissions beforehand and pay upfront fees which takes away more income streams from artists.

As for drums machines, even tho I have a few. I try never to use them for my recordings as it's taking away the very eliment of music making I'm best at . I don't learn from books but by ear. And as you can tell if you watched the video I'm in no way playing exactly what was in the original recording altho lots of it is hopefully not too far from the original. I'm wondering when it would go from being a reproduction of the beat to just an attempt at playing it.
 
I don't know but I have been told that you cannot copyright a guitar or bass riff? I have heard the bass riff from "Another one bites the dust" on at least one other song and the Fleetwood Mac riff from Top Gear (The Chain?) has also been ripped. Are these people paying royalties?

In the end it is the blood sucking lawyers that make the money!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
I don't know but I have been told that you cannot copyright a guitar or bass riff? I have heard the bass riff from "Another one bites the dust" on at least one other song and the Fleetwood Mac riff from Top Gear (The Chain?) has also been ripped. Are these people paying royalties?

In the end it is the blood sucking lawyers that make the money!

Dave.
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Ye lawyers hoover up all the cash they can find. I wudnt imagine I'd sell enough to justify much of a lawyers hourly rate tho. But I know it's fun to play the guitar to those cheesey sounding backing tracks on YouTube so I'd guess a few musicians would like something with a bit of live feel and groove to play some of their fav songs. Actually creating the right sound would still be top of the list of challenges of course
 
rob aylestone said:
If you register a recording in the UK with the copyright authorities here, and the US system mirrors ours I think, the drop down boxes of instruments include percussion. So the protection has the feature of allowing copyright protection and fees to go to John Smith, Drums.
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There are no 'drop down boxes' for instruments in the US Copyright forms.
 
Turn it around. If you were a drummer who was better than some other drummers, then you'd expect protection, and intellectual property rights world wide are protected in every country. Dont' forget there two basic rights here - in the UK, composers register the work details with PRS, but the recordings have protection from PPL - so that's the rights of the musicians in their contribution. Here, PRS is not interested in who played just who wrote it, so our dropdown boxes are on their data.

I wonder if the test would be Shazzam? If you take some music that starts with a drum intro, would it identify the rights holder? If it can, that would be a Judge Judy moment. If a piece of music can be identified by rhythm, then whoever dreamed that up, owns it. How can you argue?

How about that old 60's song, Wipeout? Timing and feel?
 
I also found some 100% protected material from a drummer - Cozy Powell, a 70s drummer. Plus the warnings of doom from the distributors on any percussion loops - so they're concerned rights are a potential problem.

It's interesting that so many sites have exactly the same wording on the rhythm, melody and lyrics but not the drums. I suppose it just hasn't been tested in court to any public degree, but the current copyright titles are now based on intellectual property, as in what you thought, rather than old definitions of pitch and rhythm, and rhythm as a description supports drum beats, not fails them!
 
rob aylestone said:
I also found some 100% protected material from a drummer - Cozy Powell, a 70s drummer. Plus the warnings of doom from the distributors on any percussion loops - so they're concerned rights are a potential problem.

It's interesting that so many sites have exactly the same wording on the rhythm, melody and lyrics but not the drums. I suppose it just hasn't been tested in court to any public degree, but the current copyright titles are now based on intellectual property, as in what you thought, rather than old definitions of pitch and rhythm, and rhythm as a description supports drum beats, not fails them!
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One thing you are not taking into consideration is that, most of the original artists no longer own thier songs or intellectual rights in any form. And l work for a Federal law firm that specializes in entertainment and copyright law. Since l am not a lawyer l can not give any legal advice, but here is the thing. It is a matter of enforcement. Back when the artist owned his owns songs entirely, if you infringed on his intellectual property, which included any and all drum parts, it was still up to the artist to decide if it was worth hiring a lawyer, including all the legal expenses involved to pursue the matter. If the money that could be rewarded in that law suit was minimal, the answer was usually no.

But that isn't the case anymore. Let's say for exam you sold drum covers to ZZ Top's La Grange, but sold them as "In the style of". Since ZZ Top sold thier catalog, it would not be Frank Beard taking you to court. The party taking you to court would be BMG or the new property owners if they felt "In the style of" needed further legal definement. And most publishing companies have very aggressive legal departments, that write off legal expenses. So if you got a letter or notice from BMG or otherwise saying to stop it. You had better take it seriously. Law Offices and legal departments are No Joke.

In the case of Federal Copyright law, the matter can be refered to the FBI for enforcement. While the FBI might not listen to a complaint by Frank Beard himself, you can go to the bank that the FBl will take the matter seriously if it is referred to them by the BMG legal department, or an associated law firm, should BMG or the copyright owner go that route.

And the law firm could bring in the IRS if the income you made was not reported properly on your taxes. Which you would have to hand over in the Discovery process to calculate damages, etc.
So you you could be legally responsible for your actions to more than one federal agency. So really if you want to make money in music, it is best to stick to your own material. There is no privacy or hiding on the internet anymore. Any law firm or legal department has the tools to track you down. You can't hide on the internet anymore, the digital footprint you leave online can be easily traced by internet security companies as well.
 
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But that doesn't mean that selling drum tracks is impossible. There is a big demand for that as drumming is a lost Art and modern drummers have no ability to play any of those songs correctly anymore.

Say if l wanted to sell drum tracks of La Grange etc, since l am a contracted BMG Artist, l would simply contact BMG through my mybmg.com account. Tell them my plan, and set it up where all sales were made to BMG. They would do the admin on the matter and send me my cut based on a contractual agreement before l began selling my drum interpretations. Which would accompany all the other works that BMG does admin for me and forwards the funds they collect in quarterly statements.

So yes it is possible, although maybe not real easy.
 
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