Recording acoustic guitar with a piezo pickup

[Eric V]

My friend and I are planning on recording an acoustic guitar that has a piezo pickup.

Hardware details:

• Guitar with piezo p/u
• Mackie MDB-1A active direct box
• Behringer X1204USB mixer
• Miktek condenser mic, and a Shure SM-57 dynamic mic

If we record the guitar with both the direct input using the direct box and the condenser, or the dynamic, will there be phasing issues? Other issues?
Can the mixer provide phantom to both the direct box (it requires phantom power) and also to the Miktek, if we chose to use that mic instead?

​

 

[TalismanRich]

As long as the direct and Miktek are on different channels, there should be no issue with the phantom power. It would be no different than using two condenser microphones.

As for a phase issue, if you find it to be a problem, you could easily nudge a track by a millisecond or so and get them exactly in phase. But if you are sending the signals to different areas of the pan, you should have no problem with cancellation as the signals won't be overlapping directly.

 

[Eric V]

As long as the direct and Miktek are on different channels, there should be no issue with the phantom power. It would be no different than using two condenser microphones.

As for a phase issue, if you find it to be a problem, you could easily nudge a track by a millisecond or so and get them exactly in phase. But if you are sending the signals to different areas of the pan, you should have no problem with cancellation as the signals won't be overlapping directly.

Thank you, Rich!

 

[Papanate]

My friend and I are planning on recording an acoustic guitar that has a piezo pickup.

Hardware details:

• Guitar with piezo p/u
• Mackie MDB-1A active direct box
• Behringer X1204USB mixer
• Miktek condenser mic, and a Shure SM-57 dynamic mic

If we record the guitar with both the direct input using the direct box and the condenser, or the dynamic, will there be phasing issues? Other issues?
Can the mixer provide phantom to both the direct box (it requires phantom power) and also to the Miktek, if we chose to use that mic instead?

​

I’ve never heard of Phase Issues wtih a Condenser and Piezo P/U - I can’t imagine you would because they are different things at the base of it.

 

[Eric V]

I’ve never heard of Phase Issues wtih a Condenser and Piezo P/U - I can’t imagine you would because they are different things at the base of it.

Thanks Papanate!

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I’ve never heard of Phase Issues wtih a Condenser and Piezo P/U - I can’t imagine you would because they are different things at the base of it.

Yeah, I haven't either. This shouldn't be an issue.

The bigger issue is piezos almost never sound any good - it's a very specific sound, and sometimes while it sounds 'fake' it can still make for an interesting part, but if you want a traditional "good" acoustic sounds, the piezo is probably not going to get you there on its own. It might be worth poking around on the internet for IRs captured with both a mic'd acoustic and a piezo, to process the piezo into something that sounds a lot more natural.

Other than that though, if you need two tracks of acoustic, I'd probably just perform the part twice and record both with the condenser, rather than try to use a piezo as part of a stereo recording.

 

[Eric V]

Yeah, I haven't either. This shouldn't be an issue.

The bigger issue is piezos almost never sound any good - it's a very specific sound, and sometimes while it sounds 'fake' it can still make for an interesting part, but if you want a traditional "good" acoustic sounds, the piezo is probably not going to get you there on its own. It might be worth poking around on the internet for IRs captured with both a mic'd acoustic and a piezo, to process the piezo into something that sounds a lot more natural.

Other than that though, if you need two tracks of acoustic, I'd probably just perform the part twice and record both with the condenser, rather than try to use a piezo as part of a stereo recording.

Thank you Drew.

 

[Papanate]

Other than that though, if you need two tracks of acoustic, I'd probably just perform the part twice and record both with the condenser, rather than try to use a piezo as part of a stereo recording.

IME I haven’t had any issues with Piezo pickups - but I also don’t mix them in as a main part of the acoustic sound - I bring them in to add definition to the gutiar - I get a
whole britemess that is not available from the Condensers - of course recording duplicate tracks is good too.

 

[Eric V]

IME I haven’t had any issues with Piezo pickups - but I also don’t mix them in as a main part of the acoustic sound - I bring them in to add definition to the gutiar - I get a
whole britemess that is not available from the Condensers - of course recording duplicate tracks is good too.

Thanks for the tips Papanate.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

I find the piezo signal from an acoustic guitar to be useless unless it’s mangled beyond belief as an effect. A world class sounding acoustic and one or two mics is all you need.

 

[Eric V]

I find the piezo signal from an acoustic guitar to be useless unless it’s mangled beyond belief as an effect. A world class sounding acoustic a one or two mics is all you need.

Thank you @Scott Baxendale

 

[Scott Baxendale]

Thank you @Scott Baxendale

Aim the 57 at the neck joint and the condenser at the lower bout about 12” away. Or aim them both together toward the neck joint.

 

[Eric V]

I will remember these tips! Thank you again Scott.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

I find the piezo signal from an acoustic guitar to be useless unless it’s mangled beyond belief as an effect. A world class sounding acoustic and one or two mics is all you need.

100% agree based on my experience. I've got a Taylor 414ceR that's got their electronics in it - and it sounds good as far as these things go. But there is nothing like that - that can compete with a condenser mic up close (or a microphone in general). IMO, of course.

 

[Eric V]

100% agree based on my experience. I've got a Taylor 414ceR that's got their electronics in it - and it sounds good as far as these things go. But there is nothing like that - that can compete with a condenser mic up close (or a microphone in general). IMO, of course.

Thanks @PorterhouseMusic

 

[TalismanRich]

It's funny that everyone dumps on sound of piezo systems, but I've got quite a few videos of people like Stephen Stills and Eric Clapton playing acoustic guitars with that obvious piezo sound. Granted they don't sound like a mic'd up guitar, but you might just consider it as it's own sound. Just as electrifying archtops in the 40s didn't sound like the plain archtop, and the electric guitars didn't sound like the archtops with pickups, maybe we need to consider them as their own sound.

It won't be the first time. A Hammond doesnt' sound like a pipe organ, a Vox Continental didn't sound like a Hammond which doesn't sound like a Wurlitzer, etc, etc. Even different pickup systems don't sound the same. My Taylor sounds different from my Dean. They are both different from Martin.

Don't give up on them, consider them another brush in the paint box.

 

[Eric V]

It's funny that everyone dumps on sound of piezo systems, but I've got quite a few videos of people like Stephen Stills and Eric Clapton playing acoustic guitars with that obvious piezo sound. Granted they don't sound like a mic'd up guitar, but you might just consider it as it's own sound. Just as electrifying archtops in the 40s didn't sound like the plain archtop, and the electric guitars didn't sound like the archtops with pickups, maybe we need to consider them as their own sound.

It won't be the first time. A Hammond doesnt' sound like a pipe organ, a Vox Continental didn't sound like a Hammond which doesn't sound like a Wurlitzer, etc, etc. Even different pickup systems don't sound the same. My Taylor sounds different from my Dean. They are both different from Martin.

Don't give up on them, consider them another brush in the paint box.

Thanks @TalismanRich . We ended up recording through a Mackie active direct box (the one in the original post) and blended it to taste. It works well enough to keep the results. Kind of like an experiment. Another tool.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

I don't really see it as "dumping on". It's just my objective opinion when listening back to the different ways I can record my acoustic gtr. Generally, I agree that: the rules are there ain't no rules. If it sounds good - it is good. Your (meaning each individual) opinion is the only one that matters.

Over the years I have never used a piezo or in-hole-pickup that caused me to think "yeah - that sounds good" - when recording. In fact - in my opinion - they sound awful when compared to a good mic in a good room on a good guitar.

I have one of the RND 5017 preamps. It allows you to run a direct signal from the acoustic electronics AND grab a mic signal and blend them in level (and it has a vari-phase knob). I have tried everything to try to find something useful or interesting or pleasing - I ended up abandoning that effort as the gtr electronics just can't be blended to sound good - to my ears anyway. I guess it could still be useful for playing live though. That's a whole other thing.

 

[Papanate]

I have one of the RND 5017 preamps. It allows you to run a direct signal from the acoustic electronics AND grab a mic signal and blend them in level (and it has a vari-phase knob). I have tried everything to try to find something useful or interesting or pleasing - I ended up abandoning that effort as the gtr electronics just can't be blended to sound good - to my ears anyway. I guess it could still be useful for playing live though. That's a whole other thing.

Do. you have this Preamp? To me that’s when the Neve company just relied on their reputation instead of making useful tools.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

Do. you have this Preamp? To me that’s when the Neve company just relied on their reputation instead of making useful tools.

Yes - that's the one.