Recording acoustic guitar; cost no barrier...best mike ?

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The Axis

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Well, actually cost might be a barrier, but let's pretend it isn't for a moment. I want to record acoustic guitar, and capture the tones that I would describe as "woody" or "leathery". Present without being trebly and getting rid of "boominess". I have been using an AT-4033, an AKG-C3000B, an AT-4041, and an AT-ATM21. So far, I'm not really satisfied with any of them. I would probably pay whatever it REALLY takes, but I resist the "more expensive must be better" philosophy.
I am speculating that I want:
1. Large as possible diaphragm
2. 2-3 dB dip in 200-400 Hz range
3. 2-3 dB boost in 1-4 kHz range
4. Flat in 4-12 kHz
4. rapid drop of above 12 kHz
Any opinions or suggestions ?
Thanks.
 
Before U go and jump on a nice new expensive mic make sure your preamp, cables and recordin device are up to snuff. If those suck then no matter what mic U have it will be really hard to pull a great sound out of it.

Also consider buying a matched pair of mics and using a stereo micing placement. Doing this gives U more options with how U want your geetar to sound. For more info on that go here:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Features/FRecAcousticGtr/

they also have short audio examples if U can find them

Good luck,

Sabith
 
I'm a acoustic guitarist and I've been spending a good part of my free time over the past year "trying" to record ac. guitar :-)
Like Sabith said, A pre is very important. I just invested in a Great River MP2 and it's helped alot. My current fave setup is a KM184 pointed towards the 13th fret and an AT4033 pointed but slightly angled away from the soundhole.
Your room is another factor, unfortunately my room is my den in my apartment. I don't think my landlord (or my girlfriend) would like me sticking foam everwhere!

Good luck, and in the midst of all the technology, don't forget the music!

-Evan
 
This has little to do with the mic issue, because I'm dirt poor, using 1 sm 58. More to the point, I've found I get the best sound with the mic about 1 foot away from the guitar pointed at the body about where a typical cutaway would be, low-between the neck & soundhole. Most importantly, I record in a narrow hallway, regular painted drywall, 8 ft ceiling, carpeted floor. I play facing the wall with the mike in said placement. The mic distance keeps it from being boomy, but the narrow space reflections bring it to life. Might even work better with multiple mics, though I haven't tried yet. Might not be ideal, but its a way I've found to get maximum results from meager equipment and facilities. Long post to say relatively little dont you think?
 
hmmm...Since my room sounds horrible, I might have to check out that hallway thing! I have a little hallway from my den/kitchen to my bedroom, but all my equip blocks one end of the hallway, which is also where I keep all my guitars. This experiment might involve some moving furniture and stuff, but at least my rack is on wheels! Or...I can keep my rack where it is, set up my mics in the hallway, hit record in my den, run through the kitchen, play, and run back to hit stop, I think that will be easier...This method would also allow me to track in my bathroom, except I'll have to keep the lights off so the stupid fan doesn't come on! Isn't home recording fun!

-Evan "Thinking out loud"


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lazyboy:
Most importantly, I record in a narrow hallway, regular painted drywall, 8 ft ceiling, carpeted floor. I play facing the wall with the mike in said placement. The mic distance keeps it from being boomy, but the narrow space reflections bring it to life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
Thanks for the responses so far.
The Neumann KM184 looks pretty similar (spec-wise) to my AT4041. By my AT4041 sounds "harsh and tinney" with greatly accentuated high treble". Even when miked from about 3 feet away.
The SM-81 is high on my list, because it has the flat hi-freq response, but rolls off at the top end without ever having a peak.
I have already experimented with room acoustics, preamps, etc, and have narrowed it down to "it must be the mike !".
The reason I suspect that a large diaphragm is desireable, is because it senses a larger poetion of the sound field. Small condensers like the AT4041 and SM-81 are VERY ACCURATE, but only at a small point in the sound field, whereas the human ear collcts dtat over 4 to 8 square inches (both ears) giving an "averaging effect". That is what I think the difference is between what I hear and what gets recorded.
My AT4033 and AKGC3000B (large diaphragms) actually sound the best, but they are both a little on the "hollow" sounding side and miss the "leathery textures", even though the high treble is still there. I can make it sound "pretty good" with judicious use of parametric EQ, but I would like to stay away from additional processing as much as is reasonably possible.
Please keep the ideas coming !
Thanks.
 
By the way did you check out the post-might want to check this out-with concern to mic placement.
 
Just to add to the confusion, here's another idea which I think hasn't been mentioned: your guitar. Different mics sound different on different guitars. I was just about to buy an Oktava M-012, when I read an article in Recording magazine praising that mic, but adding that its only drawback was 'boominess' on certain acoustic guitars. Oh boy. So I emailed the guy who wrote the article and asked if, considering what he said about the Oktava, he'd recommend the Shure SM-81 instead (he'd recommended that mic as well). He wrote back and basically said 'well, it all depends on what your guitar sounds like through each of these mics, and this is not a cop-out, and just go down to the mic shop and compare before you buy. Then you'll know.'

The moral of the story is that there is no best mic for acoustic guitar - there is a best mic (or best mics) for a particular acoustic guitar, which is not the same for a different acoustic guitar.
 
Thanks, Dobro,
I agree (or I have learned) that there is no "best mike". That's why I described what I have tried, and the sounds I am looking for.
From browsing numerous prior threads, I am developing the idea that I want to try ribbon mikes, such as the Beyer M160 or Royer 121 (I think). Looking at their response curves also corroborates that they have the general frequency response I think I am looking for.
Keep the ideas coming !
thanks.
 
I'd love to hear a Royer R-121. There was a guy here once called jnorman who used a pair of R-121s on all sorts of classical ensembles, and he was convinced they were the mics-to-end-all-EQ-in-the-mix. Really sweet on a variety of acoustic instruments, and I see no reason why, just because he said they were ace on violins and flutes, they wouldn't work equally well on acoustic guitar. Do a search in the Microphone forum under 'jnorman' and you'll get a taste. I asked about R-121s over at 3Daudio recently and got only one nibble, an engineer who reported their virtues with drums/bass/guitar music. Piffle. Where do the folk engineers hang out?
 
Does anybody plug in (I have a Fishman under the saddle pick up) in addition to miking?
 
dobro:

Remember the MC-012 from The Sound Room has 3 capsules. Yes, the cardroid and even more so, the hyper-cardioid are too "boomy" due to the the huge proximity effect. But there's also the omni cap. Omni = No Proximity = No "Boominess".

And yes, the Royer R-121 is VERY nice... But usually would not be my choice most of the time for acuostic guitar as compared to ones others mentioned here already.

By the way, the Oktava MC-012 and even more so, the Elation 201, both from The Sound Room, sound more like a km184 than an AT4041; the AT4041 sound no where close... IMHO.
 
So, ah, Recording Engineer.....What gives with you and the Sound Room and Oktava mikes ?
I am just a newby, but your single minded devotion to these two commercial entities has scared me away, rather than made me interested. I can't help but think you must own stock in the companies or something.
Now, I hope the tone of this reply doesn't come across as snippy or something...I am just expressing what I really think. Maybe you do really just think that these are the best mikes and the best people on earth ! But I can't help but notice that you recommend them to everyone for everything. can you elaborate ? I am willing to listen, it is just that right now, I am very skeptical of "Fine Russian Technology". Especially since noone carries them in a place where I can go hear them.

Peace,
Rick
 
Hey LI Slim,
Thanks for the reply. My guitar actually already has a Fishman transducer that I already gave up on. It is probably OK for certain types of sound, but comes nowhere even close to a good acoustic mike setup. I tried fading in in to some level with the mikes also, but it just detracted from the "quality" of the sound at all levels, in my opinion. I am trying to capture the woody complexities of the midrange. The Fishman sounds very "processed".

Peace,
Rick
 
The Axis:

Yes, you are new here. That's why I ask you to use the "search" function here to search the microphone forum. Search for "The Sound Room" and/or "Oktava". You can even narrow it down by typing in "Recording Engineer" there too.

You can also ask ANYONE here who's been here awhile about ANYTHING they've read and/or observed and/or experienced with me, The Sound Room, Oktava, and me and my relations to The Sound Room and/or Oktava.
 
And after you've done that and can't find much and/or have more questions, ask me again...
 
Hey R.E. How do the Elations stack up against a KM-184 or a SM-81? I picked up a 319 and was blown away. The Elation is starting to look atractive.
 
RE,
Yes, obviously I have been using the search function, that is why I was already familiar with your endorsement of Octava and, what was that place again ? The Sonic Place ? (Just kidding). I am hoping you didn't take my first post as an insult to your credibility, or anything like that. Like I said, I'm new and you have much more expertise. I was hoping you could elaborate on *Why* these mikes and that place are so good. I already know you think they "sound really good". Are there other endorsers or places that have done reviews ? Why is the quality control of the Russian factory superior, etc. Their website seems mundane to below average in technical information.
I am actuall a senior staff acoustic engineer at a manufacturer of ultrasonic medical transducers. So I worry a lot about the technical and quality-control issues, but don't claim any superior knowledge of AUDIO acoustics, which seems to be where art and science meet.
Does this explain where I am coming from ?
Thanks.
Rick
 
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