Recording a Full Peice Orchestra

  • Thread starter Thread starter darnold
  • Start date Start date
D

darnold

New member
Im not sure of the total count of people in the entire orchestra, but its pretty basic.

This is probably a question for some of the pros around here but everupme os welcome to pitch in their ideas.

Bass Violin, Cellos, Viola, Voilins, Percussion, French Horns (3), Trombones (3), Trumpet (3), and two Orchestral Harps.

I would like to do a little more than the basic two stereo microphones for this session because i think i have the microphones to do it. However, ive never attempted spot micing for an orchestra like this and i need a few suggestions on how i should do it (or maybe i shouldnt do it at all).

Its in a great Tabernacle Hall. Some of the most beautiful acoustics i have heard in this area, so i wouldnt mind setting up 2 ambience mics at the very back to pick up the natural reverb. Basically i want to have options for this, and really make it a great recording. Its not going to be for a few more months so i also have time to prepare and buy a few more mics if i need to. So anyway, here comes my mic collection and setup.

Soundcraft Ghost 24 Channel
OSA 4 Channels (Two As, C, and an L, might add a few more)
Alesis HD24 (will be adding the XR expansion soon i hope too)

Neumann TLM193
Neuman U87
MXL V67
(2) MXL 603
(2) SP C1
(2) AT4033
(2) AT4050
(2) AKG C414EB
AKG C414 ULS
(2) Behringer ECM8000
(2) SP B3
Royer 122
(2) Sennheiser MD421
EV RE20
AKG D224E
Audio Technica ATM 33A
Audio Technica ATM 33R
Microtech Gefell WM70
(3) Neumann KM184
(2) Oktava MC012
And various other dynamics that i doubt we will need.

Some of the mics are subject to change if i dont get this new job im looking forward too. Might need to do a little downsizing on the expensive stuff. I should also be getting some more preamps. Im also wondering if i should snag another Royer 122 for a stereo pair for this.

Also, placement of the orchestra would be helpful.

Thanks a bunch everyone,

Danny
 
Feel free to sub mics to taste, but this is what I would do in a pinch...

KM 184 X-Y dead center over the conductor (12-15 ft high) and the first row of strings angled *barely* upstage (maybe pointed at the second or third row).

414's about 12 feet apart, again, 12-15 ft high over the first row of strings, pointed straight upstage, just beyond the strings.

U87 right in front of the conductor, just out of his reach.

Assuming you're going to two tracks, pan the 414's hard left and right. Same with the 184's (opposite, of course). U87 dead center.

Bring up the 414's (probably roll a bit of low end out of them) to get a nice, wide general image. Bring the 184's in for the detail in the strings.

Roll off quite a bit of the highs on the U87 and compress it. Hard. Well, don't "kill" it, but dig it in with a nice slow release to about 6 or 8dB of reduction.

Very slowly, bring it up *just* so you can hear it. Hit it in and out repeatedly so you know you're not overdoing it. You just want to "feel" it in there.

Spot mic anything you feel the need to. I'd probably want some LDC's on those harps... Perhaps slice out some mids so they don't build up with the area mics.

D'oh - Just noticed the HD24... Ignore the on-site mixing notes...

This is cool though, if you want to try the comp trick with the U87 - Much easier to do with monitors than phones...
 
awesome.

This is what i was looking for.

If i happened to have another pair of KM184's would it change the scenario a little more? I can borrow some if i need them.

Also, i may also have access (or own by then) to a Soundelux U95. Would this work better in place of the U87?

I was thinking about spot checking the horns to make sure i got alot of the bell sound. Since im a horn player i like to do that. Would it be worth getting another Royer 122 to use or will the figure 8 kind mess things up a little?

What about the Neumann TLM193 in place of the U87 also. Since your saying roll off most of the highs im guessing your looking for darkness and the 193 is a rather dark mic.

Maybe it will help a little to describe the details of these techniques.

Thanks again massive. Also, you dont feel the need for more room mics maybe in the back of the hall?

Danny
 
Also, i will probably bring my monitors in on location. We will probably do the recording the night before or after the concert. I will have Dynaudio BM6's when i do this, or i could possibly borrow Mackie HR824s which i have used before and might be a little better for orchestra situations.

Also, with the spot micing, whats the best way to do it? Single mics or stereo mics? Would i need to stereo mic the harps? Also, how should i spot mic the horns (trumpet, trombone, french horns). Anything for percussion?

Lots of questions, and really i dont want to over do it. But options are definately nice. Ill probably end up using mics even if i dont record them just because everyone in the orchestra will think it looks cool and more professional to help guarantee they buy the CD ;).

I wont have a lot of time to expirement but i should have time to fine place mics and stuff.

Its been a long time since ive been able to work on something new like this. Its alot of fun.

Thanks again.

Danny
 
Having 24 tracks can certainly come in handy... I normally have to record straight to two-track with orchestras. Once in a while I get the "luxury" of an eight track...

It's one of my favorite ways to go about things - I'd just spot mic with singles - wherever you feel would come in handy.

The big thing is to make sure that you're overheads are kickin' - Anything else is just gravy. God knows you've got the tracks, you might as well put some mics up.

Record a piece or two (tell the conductor to hit some LOUD parts so you can get a true level). Listen to the stereo area mixes and just find out what sounds weak, spot mic it and have lunch.

JUST KEEP IN MIND that during mixdown, two or three tracks might sound better alone than all the "gravy" tracks. Use what you need, and what adds to the whole, and mute the rest.
 
nice post....i'm definitely interested in recording something as large as an orchestra sometime. i wish you well with the recording and I would love to hear a sample of it when you're done (if you're willing to let me hear it of course) :)
 
Yah i thought it would be a good post because this kind of stuff doesnt get brought up here much. Which is also why im a little clueless about it.

I like your ideas Massive. Ive seen it done this way when i watch sound track recording documentation. i probably wont over do it with the spot micing, just looking for options.

I will gladly post some of it when im finished. Funny i havnt posted any of my work on here. Maybe its time. Whats the best way to post stuff? I would want to do that tonight if i could.

Danny
 
Alright.

Just getting back to this thread even though its old.

Probably going to do some test recording tonight with the orchestra. Its not our concert so we are still going to be rehearsing sections instead of run throughs so i may not post. But we have like 5 more rehearsals until the concert and im not going to have time to mess around with placement the day of the concert (or the night before if we decide to do it before the concert) so im going to test stuff before i have to do it.

Kind of a pain to do it this way because that means i gotta pull out the ghost which is a pain because its tightly fitted in the console. But tonight could be the only time i have these next two months to get it done. Busy as hell in the studio lately.

But ill let everyone know how it turns out. And ill possibly post some samples if their are any that are good enough in the song.

Danny
 
Just thought of something.

What polar pattern are you thinking with the C414s. Omni or cardiod?

I might try the Royer in place of the U87.

Danny
 
And set your track levels to where they DON'T exceed -10 dBFS on the 24 track for the loudest parts during the rehearsal, then lock those setting for the actual performance. Trust me on this one; they WILL play louder during the actual performance.
 
Yah ive had a little experience with that because i know my playing and ive messed around recorded stuff.

This is the first time im going to try something really serious with it all.

Have any more micing tips Harvey?

Danny
 
You've already got a lot of good advice here, here's a little more.- A full orchestra is crammed onto a stage, and space is really hard to find. The more cables, stands, etc. you have, the more difficult it will be to manage. You have a lot of mics and channels, but this isn't a rock band. Less is more. I would probably use the 2 414EB's as an X-Y pair, 6 feet behind the conductor and about 8' over his/her head. I would use two of the KM184's as a spaced pair, at some distance, to pick up high end detail on the strings and brass sections, which will probably be opposite each other. Then close mic (relatively- say 4-6') the harps. You can use one figure of 8 between them, say the U87, or use the 87 on one and the 414B-ULS on the other. If there is a piano, put the 87 on the piano, and use the other KM184 on the second harp. Then stop!!! The smaller number of tracks with the best preamps you've got will yield better results and produce less cabling problems than a shit load of tracks through mediocre preamps.
I believe you'll get your best results using a few good mics into a few good channels. And what Harvey said is spot on. Finally, be prepared for the fact that they are not going to wait for you for any reason during the performance, so be prepared to record it all as one song straight through and edit it down to separate cuts later. Best of luck. It's lots of fun, but a bit stressful.-Richie
 
darnold said:
Yah ive had a little experience with that because i know my playing and ive messed around recorded stuff.

This is the first time im going to try something really serious with it all.

Have any more micing tips Harvey?

Danny
Click to expand...
Everybody has already covered it pretty well, but let me reinforce one important point:

JUST BECAUSE YOU RECORD A TRACK, THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAFTA USE THE TRACK!!
 
Well, my favorite way to do orchestras is with a Decca Tree. You do not really have the right mics to do it, but you could come pretty close. I would use the 414 EB's for the left and right, and the other 414 for the center (all set to omni, of course). If you feel the need, use a couple of 184's for wide outside mics (about 12-14 feet apart, in line with the left and right of the Decca tree, aimed a little offstage, about 15 degrees). After that, use various LD condensers for spot mics, as needed (only your ears will tell you that).

DPA's Mic University on the Decca Tree.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Ahh this is great information.

Basically i understand the importance that just because i have it recorded onto a track doesnt mean i have to use it. Im really not concerned with the spot mics really, but i did want to mention that i had room for it.

I just got back from my trial session. It was still under heavy rehearsing so im not going to be using it, but it was for me to see what the mix was going to need. I only worried about the XY micing above the director and the outside mics. I did place mics on the harps to because i feel they will probably need it and i wanted to see how it worked to spot mic them.

I was very satisfied with the sound with the outside mics, at least with the headphones so i dont think ill have to do much with the spot micing. What i was really looking for with the extra tracks and mics would be for room mics. I really think im going to try putting 2 mics in omni at the very back on the hall to pick up the room a little.

I will try swapping the C414s and the KM184s next time.

Luckilly there is quite a bit of space for spot mics and cables. I also have snakes that will help clear up the clutter. One of my initial thoughts was to go ahead and spot mic most of the important things and only use them if i need them.

Also, i also realized, from experience, that they will not slow down for me during the concert. This is much easier to understand because im actually playing in the concert. Once i set something its goin. Which is why all the setup and fine tuning is going to be done the night before the concert. We will run through everything that night the same as a concert so i will have the option between the two in the final mix.

I have done orchestra quite a few times, but ive always done it basic. Ive never had the track or mic capability to do what i want with it until lately. I wanted to use this as my chance to expand my perspective on it, which is why i want to do more spot micing than its worth. Its all part of my experimentation. I realize most of the spot micing i wont use, but ill still have the option of using it if i need it.

The tips have been great. Thanks to everyone. It seems this is a basic setup for orchestras but ive never even thought about trying it this way.

Im going to go listen to what i did tonight. I decided not to pull out the Ghost board and take the outboard pres tonight because this was really just to get an idea on what was critical for spot micing and a basic idea of how it was going to sound. It was done on the halls nasty berry mixer so im expecting much with the preamps. But it should give me a decent idea on what ill need to bring for the real thing.

Danny
 
I just got done listening to the most important parts of the music.

The over all balance of it is alright. Definately needs a few spot mics in there for the woodwinds and stuff. But overall its really muddy and lacking the clarity i am looking for. It definatelly could be the effect of using Behringer preamps though so im not making any huge decisions until i hear it with the real stuff. But maybe im looking for a more modern type classical sound than traditional. If i have room for it, i might experiment with doing a full on micing like i have invisioned. I might not actually use it but i really want to do it to expirement.

Basically the way i want to look at it is kind of like micing a drumset. Use the Room and outside mics to get the over all balance of the sound but use close mics to get some extra punch and clarity of it. It might not be practical to do it this way but its really how it seems ive seen really big preffesional projects done. I might not actually use all the mics all the time but i really want them there to give them that extra spark of presense and give it a little more modern classical sound.

I think the reason why im looking for more this type of sound because we only have one traditional classical song. Most of the concert is dedicated to veterans and stuff so there its got alot of marches. It also includes a John Williams song which is more modern classical than traditional.

Anyway, i guess ill just have to learn trial and error because probably what you are telling me is the right way but my curiosity is driving me to try other things.

The preamps should help overall. Even getting them into the ghost preamps should open up the sound.

Danny
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top