Question about maintenance

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Zobi

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I'm thinking about getting 1/2" 8 track machine for tracking. The reason I'm considering getting a tape machine is because most of my favorite albums were recorded on tape and I love that sound ........ I'm talking about early '90s hiphop albums.

Almost everybody I asked about this told me to stay away from analog machines because they will require a lot of maintenance work and also the tape is expensive. They all told me that I can get any sort of sound I want to from a computer based DAW.

I'd like to ask you guys how hard and expensive is it to maintain an analog machine? It would be my first one and I have no experience with them at all. Would it be too much to handle?

Also, would you have any specific recommendations which 1/2" 8 track to get?

Thank you very much....
 
QUOTE........"They all told me that I can get any sort of sound I want to from a computer based DAW"

That could be answered with one or two words, but I'll refrain.............it does make me wonder what "experience" these advisers have had...........either with analogue or digital.

As far as recommendations or advice on what to look for or maintenance, I would defer to the opinions of other that post here who have far more experience and knowledge than me............just be patient waiting for an answer.
 
I just got a Fostex Model 80 8trk machine. Of course, it's only 1/4", but I absolutely love it!

The people who told you analog takes too much time to maintenence, etc. are just lazy or scared. As long as you know what you're doing, analog is very rewarding. Yeah, you may have to clean and demag your heads every once in a while and the alignment process is a little tricky, but when you hear how much better it sounds than digital, you won't care. When did people get so LAZY?? Does anybody remember how albums were made before DAWs came around? The tape costs aren't as bad as I thought either. For my machine, a 22 minute reel costs around 12 bucks. As long as you know exactly what you are going to track (and god forbid PRACTICE it a few times), you can get a lot out of one reel. I have been working in Pro Tools for two years now, and I still think DAWs are great! I have two DAW setups and I love both of them. But, when you need that warmth that only analog can provide, plug ins just won't cut it. If you have the means, I would suggest getting a DAW and an analog tape machine.

My new method of recording makes use of my DAW and my analog tape machine. What I do is record about 4 tracks into my DAW. I usually start with guitar, bass, some sampled drums, etc. I do all my editing and such and basically have 4 tracks of audio that I feel comfortable basing a song around. I then record those 4 tracks simultaneously on to my tape machine, on 4 seperate tracks. The remaining 4 tracks on tape I use to do various overdubs or whatever other tracks I feel are neccessary (vox, synths, sound fx, etc.). Then, when I am finished, I record all 8 tracks BACK into pro tools for mixing (with pristine external A/D conversion and a 24 bit digital adat connection to my interface) and then touch up whatever I need to. I can even overdub more tracks straight to pro tools or I can decide I'm done. This may sound like a lot of work, but it's really not. Plus, when I compare how good my tracks sound to the stuff I was doing before I had my tape machine, I don't care that it takes a little bit more time.

Anyways, I suggest to get an analog machine because it really does sound awesome. But, if you are using the method I just spoke of, I would really reccomend some decent 24 bit a/d converters. You wouldn't believe how big a difference good a/d converters make in your sound. Especially if you want to accurately capture the sound of analog when recording digitally. If you are going for 1/2", this will be even more true as 1/2" 8 track will sound even better than my machine.

I say, GO for it!!
 
Ghost, thanks a lot for that link.

K.C. Maloney said:
What I do is record about 4 tracks into my DAW. I usually start with guitar, bass, some sampled drums, etc. I do all my editing and such and basically have 4 tracks of audio that I feel comfortable basing a song around. I then record those 4 tracks simultaneously on to my tape machine, on 4 seperate tracks. The remaining 4 tracks on tape I use to do various overdubs or whatever other tracks I feel are neccessary (vox, synths, sound fx, etc.). Then, when I am finished, I record all 8 tracks BACK into pro tools for mixing (with pristine external A/D conversion and a 24 bit digital adat connection to my interface) and then touch up whatever I need to.
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It is similar to what I was thinking about doing. The only difference is that I thought I would first record to tape and then dump everything into the software. That way, there would be one less conversion.

K.C. - What exactly is alignment process? Is it the same thing as calibration? What kind of converters would you recommend?

Thanks for your help guys.....
 
Any specific machine you guys would recommend?

Thanks a lot.....
 
Tascam tsr8 is the last machine tascam made in 8 track format. It already has dbx built in. After that I would recommend the 38 tascam machine with external dbx units.
You cant beat em!
 
Yeah, tape head alignment is the same thing as calibration.

It can make a huge difference in the sound quality and reliablity of your tape heads and is often overlooked.

For A/D conveters, I currently employ the converters on my TC Electronics Gold Channel. It's a 2-ch mic pre with analog ins and outs and spdif, tdif optical, and AES/EBU ins and outs. In addition to it's nice mic pres, it's got some really nice A/D conveters, especially for the price of it all ( i got mine for around $800 used). Initially, I was looking to buy dedicated A/Ds, but I also needed some nice mic pres and the Gold Channel was the obvious choice because it had both (plus a bunch of other cool features). If I had the cash, though, I would have bought the Apogee Rosetta 200 (2-ch. 24bit/192khz A/D and D/A) and a Universal Audio 2-610 dual tube mic pre. Apogee makes the best A/D converters, in my opinion. But I tested out the Gold Channel and I was happy with everything it had and the price was just right. I also had my eyes on the Lucid 9624 stereo A/D converters. These are a bit cheaper than Apogee's and offer comparable conversion quality (not quite as good, but still way better than the A/Ds on a digi002). Any other converters I am not too familiar with, but Lucid and Apogee are two very good names to know. What's cool about nice A/Ds is that it can bypass any crappy recording interface you have. At my apartment, when I'm recording demos and testing mics etc. I use this Lexicon Omega interface. It's a dinky little 4- ch USB interface with some A/D conversion that just doesn't cut it for me. But, it has SPDIF ins and outs. That way, I can record everything through my Gold Channel and it's like the Omega was never there. Same goes for my digi002 at my studio; i can bypass the crappy stock converters and it's like you never knew it came through the digi002. Once again, quality A/D conversion can make a huge difference in your sound. It makes all your other equipment (mics, instruments, fx, etc.) sound much better than you thought they could.

About reel to reel tape decks, I don't know a lot about them. I've worked with them a lot, but it was only a few select models that I used over and over and over again. From my limited experience, I did notice that Studer is probably the best tape machine company out there. I never had problems with Studers and they were always in complete working conditions, while other brands of machines usually had something wrong with it (fostex, tascam, even otaris). They are a bit pricey, especially the 24 track machines, but you definitely get what you pay for. The 16 track machines are pretty expensive too (unless you're thinking of a 1/2" fostex or something). Really, what I would suggest is getting a 2-track mixdown deck. Studer and Otari make some great 2trk 1/4" machines that are going for good prices all the time on ebay. I'm on the verge of getting one myself, but I'm waiting for the right deal. Revox/Studer probably has the best models out there for 2trk machines. They aren't nearly as expensive as a 16 track or 24 track and you still get all the nice analog warmth. You can record your track in Pro tools or whatever and mix it down to 1/4" 2-track. This is a very common proceedure when recording major label records. You can still get that analog sound with all the benefits of tracking and editing in pro tools. Plus, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to get a decent 2trk machine (although you can still find some damn expensive ones if you look) and 1/4" tape is much easier on your wallet than 1" or 2" tape. Anyways, look for Studer, Revox, and Otari. Those are probably the best tape machine companies around.
 
Thanks a lot for all the info.

Converters - I'm thinking about getting the new RME FireFace. Apparently, the RME converters are very good and I would get 8 channels without having to pay for some serious upgrade (Benchmark, Apogee, Lucid....)

Tape deck - A lot of people said the same thing.....do all the tracking in the software program and just mix down to a tape, BUT I was told by someone who knows a lot about his stuff that it would be better if the first step was the tape. It would give me more of the analog "goodness". I would then dump everything into the software for editing.

1" and 2" are out of the picture for me right now. I was thinking I'd get 1/2" 8 track. It seems that in that category, Tascam 38 and TSR8 are popular choices. I remember reading somewhere that Otari decks are better than Tascam. Is it true? Does it apply to their 1/2" machines?

I appreciate your help very much....
 
Some people like Otari's better, but I'd say they are in the same league. Either brand will serve you well IMO.
 
Well, if you really want the analog sound through and through, the obvious choice would be to track on an analog multitrack. It's just more expensive and inconvenient for most people. But you would definitely get more of an analog sound from tracking on an analog multitrack and mixing down to digital than the other way around. Like I said before, just make sure you have good A/D conversion when mixing it down, though. If you plan on tracking to analog you might want to consider spending the extra cash on a really nice 2 channel converter rather than an 8 ch that may sacrifice quality for quantity. Although, I would definitely test out the 8 ch converter and compare it with a really nice 2ch converter. If you don't hear much of a difference in quality, then of course, get the 8 ch. But you may not need all those channels if you are going to be tracking to tape (unless you plan to record all 8 seperate tracks from tape to 8 seperate tracks in a DAW and then mixing in digital; then you need the 8ch converter).

With tape machines, a good 1/2" tascam 8-track and a good 1/2" otari 8-track at comparable price levels may not differ much in sound quality, but the otari will probably last longer and require less maintenence. Although I've worked with some nice Tascams, I've also talked to people that have had problems with them. I've heard less horror stories coming from Otari owners. Of course I'm sure that there are Tascams that have served many people well for a very long time. You really never know because almost every tape machine around has been used for a decent amount of time. Studers, though, are built like TANKS. They are, hands down, the most reliable and sturdy tape machines out there; that is why you see them in so many pro studios. They may cost a little bit more, but they eventually pay for themselves because you won't have to spend as much money fixing them down the line. Plus, the parts are pretty easy to find for the later models while other brand's parts may be harder to find. Just make sure you find one with the least amount of hours on the tape heads. Cosmetic condition (ie paint chipping, scuffs, etc.) really doesn't tell you anything, which is why buying a tape machine off of ebay is a little tricky. If you have the means, test out the machine you are thinking of buying. Look at the meters and how they respond to signal. Do they bounce around during silent parts? Do all the transport functions work (ie Fast FW, Rewind, Play, stop etc.)? Is it really noisy when it's running? Above all, listen to something on the tape machine and then try recording something yourself. If a tape machine passes all these tests, most likely it's in good condition and will probably serve you well (even other brands). But be carefull, especially when buying used stuff on eBay or other internet sites. Good luck!
 
K.C. Maloney said:
If you plan on tracking to analog you might want to consider spending the extra cash on a really nice 2 channel converter rather than an 8 ch that may sacrifice quality for quantity. Although, I would definitely test out the 8 ch converter and compare it with a really nice 2ch converter. If you don't hear much of a difference in quality, then of course, get the 8 ch. But you may not need all those channels if you are going to be tracking to tape
Click to expand...
I thought at first that I could send the individual tracks to the computer 1 or 2 at a time and then sync them up in the digital domain, but I was told that I'd probably need a higher end tape machine to do that, as the cheaper stuff may have small fluctuations in speed that would make syncing tracks very difficult if not impossible. That made me think that I would have to get 8 channel A/D converter to be able to transfer all 8 tracks simultaneously. That's why I'm considering the RME FireFace....

K.C. Maloney said:
unless you plan to record all 8 seperate tracks from tape to 8 seperate tracks in a DAW and then mixing in digital; then you need the 8ch converter
Click to expand...
I thought I'd have to do that in order to avoid the syncing issues...

K.C., do you have any experience with syncing tracks in the digital domain?

Thanks so much.
 
Those people are right. I would imagine you would only be able to record track by track of individual tracks and then sync them up in a DAW with high end multitracks, but even a really nice high end machine would have have some trouble doing this I imagine, just not as much. I have tried to record two tracks at once from my fostex 8-track and then line them up in pro tools. This did not work very well and I did have to do a lot of editing and TCE (time compression/expansion) to get it right. I did get it to sound okay, but it's something I would not want to do again. Although, maybe with SMPTE time code, something can be arranged, but I've never done anything like that. I'd actually like to know if anybody has ever done this successfully (without editing for hours and hours) and how.
 
Heres the info

I worked in a pro studio. If you're going for that analog sound with the digital editing. Most will record into analog on of course the record head and at the same time output the analog sound simultaniously into protools from the playback head. Then when the song is finnished and satisfactory they'll rewind the tape and record over the 1st song. Thus saving money on tape costs and getting the analog sound. They'll use it more as like an effect unit than an actual recorder. Most overdubbing is done in protools. The tape is generaly used for basics...IE...All drum parts, and bass. Usually scratch guitars will go on there sometimes used sometimes not. The greatness of analog is the bottom end. The kick drum, Toms, and bass sound great on analog. The other nice analog quality is tape compressions. Then for mix they'll send protools out to a 2 track analog and a dat tape at the same time. For synching analog and protools Yes you'll need to use a timecode usualy SMPTE. That is "striped" onto one of the tape tracks. The tape track is then outputed to a time code reader. It then can be used for things like mixing automation and yes synching signals. For this you'll need a device. For protools check out the USD or the Universal Slave Driver. This device can be used to Stripe tape and it can read timecode to slave the tape mechanism to the protools unit. It will read fluctuations in the tape speed and either speed up or slow down the sample rate by miniscule amounts so that everything stays in check. You can even record on analog tape and protools at the same time if they are synched. Of course this is a bit drastic for home use but its good stuff to know. Thanks and oh yea HI all I just found this site. I was looking up tascam 38 stuff. Yea the 38 is a good sounding unit just dont get ripped off and make sure the tape heads are in good shape.
 
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