Punk Rock Recording Question(s)

[royalt213]

Alright, so I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure a couple of things out recording my punk band:

1) I can't seem to get a punchy bass sound for the life of me. It's either too crisp, or too muddy. I play an ESP LTD B414SM bass (with active EMGs) through an Ampeg B2-RE head and SVT410HLF cab. I've tried miking this a number of ways (see the equipment list below) I have also tried going DI through the instrument jack on my Line 6 Toneport UX8 and using amp sims. I'm really not sure what the hell to do to get the punchy low end with a fairly present sound (e.g. the bass in most NOFX or Rancid). Any ideas or suggestions?

2) Also, I'm pretty lost on how to get a good punk vocal sound. I've tried a ton of different things, but I think I'm losing my sense of what sounds good from exhaustion. Vague? Yes. Any suggestions on a good starting point? I promise I'm not being lazy...I've read a ton of crap and experimented on this subject, but I'd rather here some suggestions from people on things that have worked (preferably for specifically punk vocals).

Here's a list of my equipment:

Cakewalk Sonar 7
Line 6 Toneport UX8 Interface
Gearbox and Podfarm Plugin

Shure Beta 57A
Shure SM58
Behringer B2PRO condenser
Audix OM2
Shure PG52
Shure PG56

Unfortunately I don't have any preamps...just the ones built-into the Line 6.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Jeff_D]

I've been using an Octava 319 for year now for vocals. I either use the preamps on my Soundcraft M8 or an Art TubeMP- flame away - the tube pre has a bad rep, lol, but it seems to work on the few singers I've used it on. The ART is dirty sounding, but it works for me at the moment.

Something else to try, is doubling vocal tracks. Record your vocal like normal. Then go back and sing right over top of that. Take one and turn it down a little and maybe even pan it off to one side or the other. You'll get a thicker sounding vocal.

Heres a couple links to stuff I've done (not because its awesome or anything, but if you hear something you like, I can tell you how I got there if it helps)

http://www.myspace.com/4deadbeats
This is the 319 through the Tube MP. Check out "She dont care. Thats got a fair amount of doubling on it. The bass is an American Fender P Bass DI'd into the Soundcraft. Maybe a little eq and compression- nothing drastic. (this is a friends band- there are actually newer mixes of these songs, but they just put these up until were done I guess)

http://www.myspace.com/eyesliemusic
The main vocal is a Audix OM2 through the Soundcraft Pre's. This was actually live recording. We over dubbed the backup vocals and we went back and tracked over a few instruments to fix our awesome playing skills. The backups were the Octava 319 through the Tube MP again. Theres a little bit of reverb added in the box. The bass is either my American P bass or a goofy warlock bass direct out of a Carvin bass amp- Since this was recorded live, the drum room mics pick up some of teh bass, so that obviously contributes to the overall sound. (my current band)

http://www.myspace.com/downhillluke
This is also the 319 through the Tube MP. No doubling. Maybe a little reverb.
I think all but the vocals were recorded live on this too. The bass on was a Fender Custom Shop active P bass through a VERY expensive Ampeg head. (This is about 4 years old now- this iwas my last band)



Common mistakes- overloading the preamp or the converters on your interface- if it sounds real harsh or clippy, turn it down; singing too close to a condenser; singing too far away from a dynamic.

My "studio" certainly isnt comprised of the latest or most expensive equipment, but we make do with what we have. None of this stuff was really "mastered" in anyway.

Welp, that turned into a long ass post. Hopefully something in there will help.
/Jeff

 

[Dogbreath]

As to your bass sound...
are you checking the sound solo'd or in the mix? If it sounds like shite solo'd...fine.....ish.

EQ may be the key here. I tend to roll off the very bottom of the guitars so I'm getting the bass from the kick and bass guitar. I may roll the bottom off the bass too but more like 40 to 60 hz. Depends on how it sounds in the mix.

Another "trick" you might try is to play the exact same bass parts on the piano and blend to taste. Sometimes it's just the ticket. Sometimes not.

Just some thoughts....
Kel

 

[LemonTree]

For the bass

I'd use the toneport / podfarm / bass / A&E preset and adjust to taste

Then after the fact duplicate the track and squash the living shit out of one and blend it back in with the original, EQ salt n pepper to taste.

That's what I used to use before I got the ampeg SVT plug..podfarm only gets used for guitars now.

 

[Bguzaldo]

You can try setting Up the DI while Mic'n the amp at the same time, I've heard a lot of awesome bass sounds where people blend the DI with a Mic, I've mic'd a cab with the OM-2 and was totally blown away by how it sounded, try to avoid the middle of the cone unless you want a deeper bass tone.

As for the vocal you could just crank the gain so that its distorting on the way in and then compress it a good amount, 8-10 db.

Hope that helps a little.
-Barrett

 

[royalt213]

I'd use the toneport / podfarm / bass / A&E preset and adjust to taste

Then after the fact duplicate the track and squash the living shit out of one and blend it back in with the original, EQ salt n pepper to taste.

That's what I used to use before I got the ampeg SVT plug..podfarm only gets used for guitars now.

Excellent idea! Thanks a ton. What's this ampeg SVT plug you speak of?

 

[royalt213]

You can try setting Up the DI while Mic'n the amp at the same time, I've heard a lot of awesome bass sounds where people blend the DI with a Mic, I've mic'd a cab with the OM-2 and was totally blown away by how it sounded, try to avoid the middle of the cone unless you want a deeper bass tone.

I tried miking it along with DI when I was first starting out, but I didn't blend the two together. I just tried to figure out which one sounded better and kept it. That's a good idea. Maybe I'll combine this idea with what LemonTree said.

Thanks!

 

[marshallpk89]

What kind of vocal sound do you want, compare your lead singer to a band, if you lead singer is loud abrasive and mostly screaming, a sm57 or 58 may do just fine, if he is singing melodically then you might want to look at a more expensive condenser, my old band used a ksm 27 and then used a compressor plug in, we were happy with it


As far as the bass sound goes I would record DI and then eq to taste, micing just is too complicated and unnecessary, unless you really know what your doing, one of the problems with micing and running a di is there is a slight delay between the two which can cause some phase problems if unaccounted for, hence bad sounding bass tracks, where the cab was supposed to add warmth it just added mud, anyways if you run DI and then fiddle with the eq a little bit you should be able to find a very useable bass sound, other than that maybe invest in a bass preamp like a sansamp or if your svt has a line out try using that

 

[royalt213]

As far as the bass sound goes I would record DI and then eq to taste, micing just is too complicated and unnecessary, unless you really know what your doing, one of the problems with micing and running a di is there is a slight delay between the two which can cause some phase problems if unaccounted for, hence bad sounding bass tracks, where the cab was supposed to add warmth it just added mud, anyways if you run DI and then fiddle with the eq a little bit you should be able to find a very useable bass sound, other than that maybe invest in a bass preamp like a sansamp or if your svt has a line out try using that

Man am I glad you commented when you did. I just wrapped up a session where I mic'd my bass cab (sm beta57a and distant condenser) as well as ran a DI. The beta57a track sounded the best as a standalone, but I was thinking about filtering in some of the DI track. I probably would have got that mud and tried a bunch of crazy stuff. I would like to know what I'm doing in that regard, though. Do you have any good links? Thanks a bunch.

 

[marshallpk89]

Man am I glad you commented when you did. I just wrapped up a session where I mic'd my bass cab (sm beta57a and distant condenser) as well as ran a DI. The beta57a track sounded the best as a standalone, but I was thinking about filtering in some of the DI track. I probably would have got that mud and tried a bunch of crazy stuff. I would like to know what I'm doing in that regard, though. Do you have any good links? Thanks a bunch.

Your ears, eq is a highly song specific thing, I would just start playing with the eq and start to learn what sounds good with your bass and in your song. You dont really need anything below 40 Hz but other than that I would just start messing with the eq and figuring out what sounds good to you

Congrats on getting a good sound from a cab thats something I have never been able to do, my recordings of my bass amps have never had the punch that I have been looking for and they have just never been as good as my sans amp

 

[royalt213]

Your ears, eq is a highly song specific thing, I would just start playing with the eq and start to learn what sounds good with your bass and in your song. You dont really need anything below 40 Hz but other than that I would just start messing with the eq and figuring out what sounds good to you

Congrats on getting a good sound from a cab thats something I have never been able to do, my recordings of my bass amps have never had the punch that I have been looking for and they have just never been as good as my sans amp

I ended up close miking the bass cab with a beta57a a little off-axis. I used a condenser (on cardioid) about 4 feet away, directly in front. I also had an unprocessed DI track, as well as a DI track processed with the A&E setting from Pod Farm. Each one sounded alright, but invidually left me with something to want. It seems a little excessive, I'm sure. I ended up using the condenser and beta57a tracks and flipped the polarity of the condenser track. It's the best sound I've come up with so far, but I still might think about getting a SansAmp.

Do you have any examples of your SansAmp at work? Or know of where I can get an example? Thanks.

 

[marshallpk89]

Do you have any examples of your SansAmp at work? Or know of where I can get an example? Thanks.

www.myspace.com/solongarlettarocks
the quality is alright and its a preproduction demo, we got it mastered and the guy ran it through a sans amp again with slightly different settings, and it was exactly what we were looking for, a sans amp is a good investment simply for the fact that you can achieve such a variety of tones, from punchy to really warm, it really is a very good bass di

 

[LemonTree]

AMPEG SVT

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/ampegsvx/features/

 

[Ronan]

Are you using the podfarm for your guitar sounds? That could be the cause of all your problems. What you are describing are the typical damage that amp modelers on guitars do to a mix.

 

[mrhotapples]

The bass may not be the issue at all but I'll put in my two cents anyway. Matt Freeman and Fat Mike play really hard for the most part and that's necessary on any instrument to cut through in a mix. If you have that satisfied and are going through a decent amp that overdrives a little bit, either through a mic or a DI (but mostly DI) then it COULD be the guitars, the drums, or any other element. A lot of the more popular punk bands use strats and telecasters with single coils on their recordings especially when the bass is important, NOFX in particular rarely use anything but stratocasters. They voice the lower midrange of the guitar differently while making the upper mids MUCH more articulate, they usually stay right out of the bass's way. Solo and mute and listen to everything together and in sets and find out what is stepping on what and try to use a parametric EQ to carve out unnecessary tone in fighting instruments.

Another thing you might want to mess with is using a multiband compressor and beating the shit out of the low mids and highs. You can also make a parallel compression bus for the bass and EQ pre-comp like a smiley face and mix in that bus to taste.

Without hearing your recording, I can't say for sure, but attitude is everything with vocals...As long as it's a loud, heartfelt performance into any microphone, it should be fine. If it's wimpy and you can't hear it before it goes into the mic, it will stay like that, no matter what it is.