Production Quality, What's The Big Deal?

[GoldFalcon]

fraser - Washington State. Unfortunately I'm on the desert side (Tri-Cities Area) where the music scene consists largely of classic rock cover bands ("Live Tonight!! Mullett-mania") or high school pungrungoskarapmetal bands. There is a n alt/folk music scene (what I am most often classified as) but no one is making a living at it. That's cool though, there are lots of venues for me in the Spokane, Seattle and Portland areas. I'm working up to those after I get my stage chops back into the shape they were in when I left off ten years ago.

Glen, I think you are certainly right. There is a glut of "talent" on the market, especially in the engineering side. In my town of a couple hundred thousand there may be half a dozen regular live music venues. There are nearly a dozen recording studios in the yellow pages alone, not counting the numerous DIY'ers running out of garage's and spare bedrooms (not that there is anything wrong with that). Every other high school kid is in some sort of band.

I've been writing songs long enough to know that mine are pretty good, and on my best days I can crank out hit calibre songs, so I'll just keep plugging away at it, doing what I do. I'll just start doing it in a studio too

Kind of funny, the other day after someone mentioned Springsteen's "Nebraska" album I went back and gave it a listen. I have to confess I love the way it sounds. So I went looking to see what the story on the recording was, they have it up at TASCAM:
http://www.tascam.com/Press/UserStories/Bruce_Springsteins_Nebraska.html

Very interesting story and kind of presents both sides of the discussion we have been having in this thread.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Gold,

I believe you when you say your talents are, at the very least, above average. The fact that, as you say, "every other high school kid is in a band" means that booking managers cannot afford to be so trusting. Hence the need for either a demo disc or an established rep. And because there are so many DIYs and studio start-ups with 24-bit digital recording and mixing capability (even if not all the people running them are not George Martin )means that there's a lot of - if nothing else - clean demo discs out there means that there's a lot of competition for the booking manager's attention. That attention more often than not will not be grabbed by an inappropriate-sounding recording or production.

I agree with you on the "Nebraska" story. That is a famous story about what happens to be my favorite Springsteen outing of all, on several scoring points. From my perspective, however, there are two unfortunate morals (OK, maybe "side-morals") that come out of that story besides the main one:

The first is that when you are a Bruce Springsteen you can get away with just about anything . This goes back in part to what I was talking about in a previous post; that the more established a musician's - or an engineer's, for taht matter - reputation, the less the importance of the quality or even the availability of a demo disc. I have some local musician friends that have never had a demo tape or disc since I've known them, but because they have an established reputation they have to turn down requests to play because their schedule is booked solid, they actually play in several different bands full time already, and can get gig dates for their own bands just by making a phone call or two to some of their regular haunts.

But I also know musicians who are excellent performers in their own rights - they could easily be considered in the same category at least as the established ones I just mentioned - but are just trying to break on to the scene, and therefore couldn't get a decent booking without a demo disc and/or an established manager even if they bribed the booking manager to do it. (well, maybe if they upped their bribe offer ).

Springsteen was able to get away with "Nebraska" because he's Springsteen. None of the local guys I'm talking about - including the established ones - could probably get very far with a "Nebraska" production anywhere except on maybe the indie Internet or college circuit.

Second, and as a guy on the receiving end of the mic cables, the one that bothers me the most about the "Nebraska" story is the inability of the engineers he took the tape to to "create the right sound." I consider that a failure on the engineer's part to have the vision that Bruce had for the "right sound", and not a technical ability to re-create it. I'm no top-shelf Atlantic Records guy by a long shot, but I see no reason why a top-shelf Atlantic Records guy couldn't get "the right sound". Hell, if they had to go out and get their own used Tascam and then pump it through some ancient over-driven tube stage, purposely induce phase probelms between two SM57s, whatever, they should have and could have been able to do so, IMHO. Their failure to do so I believe was a failure in vision or understanding, and not in technical capability.

G.

 

[GoldFalcon]

I was puzzled about that myself. If they could get that tape that was mixed down to a muddy boombox up to a level that the label was willing to go with it, why couldn't they get the sound he wanted out of the studio (especially when they had just finished "Born in the U.S.A." and a couple of tunes on there have a 'studio' "Nebraska-feel" like "I'm On Fire", the second half of "Downbound Train" and "My Hometown".

And, again, you are right (how the hell do you keep doing that?) that Nebraska could have only been pulled off by Springsteen (people forget he was the second coming of Dylan until "Born in the U.S.A." when he became Mr. Arena Rock) and even at that it was more than a little bit of a bomb (though "Atlantic City" is still a staple).

Anyway, thanks to all who have been willing to discuss this with me. I learned more than a few things and gleaned some valuable information. I even sat down and tried some multi-tracking over the past few days, those that are interested can hear the results of my amateur labors here:

 

[giraffe]

glen-
never thought it was personal, i was just playing.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

glen-
never thought it was personal, i was just playing.

Yeah, I know g. I figured it'd be smart to cover my ass in general since there are many in the forum that don't like posts that don't downright kiss the feet of the term "engineer". Frankly I'm suprised I haven't gotten torched for that post yet.

G.

 

[mwarkentin]

Personally, for stuff like you're doing (acoustic guitar/vox) I don't mind a really stripped down, "live" production. But when you get into recording full bands.. things can quickly become very muddy and production becomes a lot more important. With a shitty recording you could very easily lose many of the little touches that each musician puts into their song. It becomes necessary to EQ, compress, whatever else you need to to bring each part out. My opinion of course.

 

[GoldFalcon]

You miss the point on a lot of things choctaw. It isn't a matter of paint being left in the bottles it is a matter of what is done with the paint. Pollack or Rembrandt? Picasso or Monet? Finished and polished or splattered on the canvas? What is more pleasing to the eye? The manicured streets of suburban Chicago or the gloriously unmown paths of Seattle?

Would you rather view the DVD of "Clerks" with extra footage or "Shanghai Noon" in the theatre?

Your diatribes on home making and personal hygiene have little relevance but the fact is that many of the artist/poets I've known don't particularly care for those aspects of the social norm either. THey do tend to let their dishes pile up, their hair grow, and their breath smell bad because they exist inside their head and their struggle as artists is in trying to bring what is in their head out into the world, not vice versa.

 

[Farview]

If you decide to live outside of the 'norm', you have to deal with the fact that you are outside the 'norm'.

If you are trying to be different you have to expect people to react to you in a different way.

I've always thought that if you have to explain the art, it isn't working.

But, then again, I'm one of those 'math types'. I'll just mind my own Falcon business. Have a nice day.

 

[choctaw]

I took my post down...but it was read anyway..OH NO

You miss the point on a lot of things choctaw.

Yes the point now is that after hearing your voice and guitar recordings, which I enjoyed very much. The mix was fine, the voice was orginal sounding. I liked it. In 1957 I owned a Gretch Chet Guitar..wish I still had it and the nice sound...now they are made from different specs.

So I took my post off the forum by deleting it. I said to myself "this fellow should not receive all my flustration about how sounds should be tweaked etc". But low I find that you have read it some how.........I suppose while I was in the process of taking it down and letting you off from my words of disagreement. Poof you saw, read and responded. I did not want you to read my post.......but things have a way of taking their own path.

I just like the idea from Spock.....who said "we should use maximum utilization of our available resources" .........so if improvement is possible I let it happen.

Lastly.....your comment about letting the things inside a persons head come out into the world.....instead of the outside things going into a persons head would be a great protection for all of us.......the BS seems to come at every turn in the road........ its base intention is to overtake our rational thoughts making us zombies who salute any old flag that goes up the pole.

Choctaw

 

[giraffe]

Would you rather view the DVD of "Clerks" with extra footage or "Shanghai Noon" in the theatre?

clerks

but it's entirely in focous and i understand every word.

the production CAN ruin something, no matter how good the writeing.

 

[Strave]

You don't seem willing to accept the state of things so be happy that you enjoy making music. If people ask you why your songs are broken tell them to fuck off and write some more music. Whoever said music isn't science though has no idea what they are talking about. Every aspect of it is explained by science and mathematics (except perhaps the emotional part which is very subjective). That's besides the point... everyone I know, in my social group including family friends educators and students, judges music primarily on sound quality. I know if the quality is low, if the vocals aren't precise, accurate and pleasant, the frequency spectrum filled out nicely with no mud, no hiss, no noise I won't even bother to listen. It can't compete because there are so many groups out there who have good music AND good pleasant recordings. If you only have half of it, you're not even worth it in my mind. Sorry, but as far as I can tell, everyone I know feels the same way.