Pre's vs Mic's

[ljmaxx]

I'm serious, I want to improve my recordings (as do we all), but if I drop $1200 on a mic pre, it better make a serious improvement.

Thanks, don't mean to sound combative!

If you are going to drop $1200 consider dropping $889 instead.

http://www.sytek-audio-systems.com/

I listened to Forgot Your Letter and it sounds good to my ears. Who is that singing? She has a great voice.

 

[sdelsolray]

But I think it's to your advantage, long term, to learn on the cheap stuff.

Wouldn't it be more advantageous to learn on the good stuff?

And no amount of money would have bought the level of fidelity possible in a $2500 pro tools rig back in 1965.

What do you mean by "fidelity"? Are you saying that the Beach Boys, Beatles, Frank Sinatra, etc. recorded their work with equipment that had less fidelity that a Digi002?

Yes, the high end Neumann mic is better than a Studio Projects B1, but I'd be willing to bet that most of us, maybe even all of us, couldn't tell the difference if we were blindfolded.

I doubt it. I suspect most here, if not all, could easily hear the difference between a Neumann (or Gefell, Schoeps, DPA, Soundelux, etc.) and a Studio Projects (or MXL, SE, Rode, etc.). If you can't hear the difference, then I guess it doesn't matter.

I think too many of us try to buy the sound, when it's really our lack of skill that is holding us back.

Very true.

 

[bleyrad]

You need better monitors or a properly treated mointoring facility. The difference between APIs and Mackies are night and day. I get a big difference between my pre-amps with the same mic and I use it to my advantage.

Again, if I can't hear a difference on my $700 monitors and somewhat-treated room, how is the end listener going to hear a difference and give a crap on his $15 earbuds or car stereo? I don't get any logic which requires a higher-end system to hear any difference between gear.

 

[acorec]

Again, if I can't hear a difference on my $700 monitors and somewhat-treated room, how is the end listener going to hear a difference and give a crap on his $15 earbuds or car stereo? I don't get any logic which requires a higher-end system to hear any difference between gear.

You just don't understand. Oh well, sell your better stuff and just get cheap stuff. What is stopping you? You can use the extra money and buy more cheap stuff. With all due respect, if that is your theory, then you should do well saving money.

Oh, and if you have APIish pres and can't hear a huge difference between it and the Mackies, you don't have APIish pre-amps at all.

 

[johnsuitcase]

If you are going to drop $1200 consider dropping $889 instead.

http://www.sytek-audio-systems.com/

I listened to Forgot Your Letter and it sounds good to my ears. Who is that singing? She has a great voice.

Her name is Yolanda Bejarano, she's a local Phoenix artist, used to sing for a group called Slugger back in the 90's. We recorded that in her dining room.

I should mention that I used a Studio projects B1 on the vocals, two Groove Tube GT44s on the guitar and a Oktava MK219 about 15 feet back for the room.

And I didn't mean, in my earlier post, that we couldn't hear the difference if we were sitting there A/Bing the different mics (Neumann versus B1 or whatever). You can hear the difference between any two mics in that situation. And of course, the difference is largely subjective. I may like a mic with a little rougher highend, and pronounced mids. Whichever comes closer to my preference is the one I'll choose, if it's a blind test.

The problem is that 9 times out of ten, if I told you that I recorded with a B1 through a bluletube, when I really used a neumann through an API, you probably wouldn't be able to call me out on it. And vice versa. The API is better, yes, but in context, in a piece of music, the difference is so small that only the most well-trained ears may be able to pick it out.

Now, I'm not saying that having better gear won't improve my recordings, it probably will to some degree. But part of that will be my confidence level. If I'm sitting there thinking "Wow, this sounds really good", I'm going to put more into it, and so is the artist. Now, it may not actually sound better, but we all think it does, and that matters.

Do you see my point? If having an API mic pre makes you feel like you're getting better results, you'll get better results. But it's not necessarily the Pre that's making the difference.

Or maybe I'm just nuts.

 

[boulty]

what guitars/amp in peoples opinions are good for recording metal then? I know I am not the best guitarist out there but I think I can play pretty well for what I want to do.

At the moment I have an epiphone SG, Marshall JMP-1 and 8008 going into a marshall 1922 2x12. I would prefer to have a better guitar and cab but I am perfectly happy with the amp.

 

[cominginsecond]

What do you mean by "fidelity"? Are you saying that the Beach Boys, Beatles, Frank Sinatra, etc. recorded their work with equipment that had less fidelity that a Digi002?

Clearly yes.

 

[cominginsecond]

Yes, I am saying that if a musician wants to learn about recording and making professional sounds, they need to get outside of their instrument and learn why great performances sometimes don't sound good when recorded.

The difference between preamps (with some obvious exceptions, like the preamp built into your Soundblaster or something) will never, ever result in a great performance played on a great instrument sounding bad when recorded. It may be less than ideal, but it will never be bad by any realistic standard.

I wouldn't say the same thing about mics or mic placement though. You can really screw stuff up by using the wrong mic or by placing it in a bad way.

 

[johnsuitcase]

The difference between preamps (with some obvious exceptions, like the preamp built into your Soundblaster or something) will never, ever result in a great performance played on a great instrument sounding bad when recorded. It may be less than ideal, but it will never be bad by any realistic standard.

I wouldn't say the same thing about mics or mic placement though. You can really screw stuff up by using the wrong mic or by placing it in a bad way.

That's a good point. The Shure SM57, which sells for under $100, is repeatedly listed as the definitive snare mic by pros who have access to many other much more expensive mics. Same for guitar cabs. Some people may double them up with a second mic for flavor, but the 57 is there.

But, if all you have in your mic locker are 57s, you're going to run into some rough spots with vocals and drum overheads, and the like. It's far more important to have a good variety of mics to choose from than whether your Large Diaphragm condenser is Neumann or Studio Projects. So if you're on a budget, make sure you have at least one representative from each mic family: LD Condenser, MD Condenser, Dynamic, LD Dynamic (for bass and kick), and even a PZM is nice to have. Then focus on getting the best vocal sounds you can, as that's the thing most listeners focus on.

The best acoustic guitar, recorded with an SM57 isn't going to sound stellar, even through an API or Neve or whatever.

 

[Middleman]

However, if you read Howard Massey's book (Behind the Glass) which is essentially a LOT more of the "same".....you see QUITE a few of those world-class engineer/producers interviewed who mention Mackie boards as being "very nice" and "excellent" (their words, not mine).

I have this book. Actually only one maybe two mention Mackie in the whole book. Those quotes are from several years ago when the Mackie's first came on the market with their low end mixers and there was a lot of hype going around. The two people that mention doing an album on a Mackie state it may be possible however, none of them ever admit to having done it. You have to read between the lines.

The best acoustic guitar, recorded with an SM57 isn't going to sound stellar, even through an API or Neve or whatever.

I beg to differ. Crosby Stills and Nash had several albums that disprove this point.

I'm kind of done on this subject so let's just say we have a stand off between "Tastes great" and "Less filling".

 

[Sporkmyband]

You're just nuts

LOL....
Again, I want to take up for good pres AND good mics.
BOAF UM-
I think DECENT MIC (500 buck ish decent)
1,000 ish Mic pre=
GOOD SOUND!
Why don't people talk about Vintech...
VINTECH VINTECH VINTECH
Suitcase...the thing that makes your recordings good to my ears is the ARTISTS....The mic sounds like the way I remember the SP C1 sounding when I tried it out. So I guess it isn't that different from the B1. The guitars sound really nice to me.
I think everything sounds nice...but GO PRE GO MIC GO!
And as far as the theory that if you think it sounds good, you will....hmmm
that is possible. psychology maybe?... For me again...the biggest improvement I have ever experienced was the Vintech x73i. I LOVE IT! Oh and Suitcase...
By the style of music you have been recording...
Are you familiar with the GET UP KIDS...(new stuff), This Day And Age, The Umbrellas (guy in lyndsey diaries)...
Ed Rose Produces these guys all very cool genres...
Check Out Black Lodge Recording
He personally told me to get a Vintech x73i and I wouldn't desire another pre for a LONG while. He also used a SP T3 (500 bucks) for the This Day And Age vocals. THEY SOUNDED KILLER! And he used an MXL 990 (60 bucks) through the Vintech Pre...those vox were killer too.

 

[mrface2112]

I have this book. Actually only one maybe two mention Mackie in the whole book. Those quotes are from several years ago when the Mackie's first came on the market

well, according to the copyright on the book, it came out in 2000--and most of the interviews seem to have taken place in 1999......so unless i'm in some sort of timewarp, i'd hazard a guess that mackies came out a fair bit before that. and i sure don't remember a lot of mackie hype in 2000.....

The two people that mention doing an album on a Mackie state it may be possible however, none of them ever admit to having done it. You have to read between the lines.

well, of course none of them admit to actually having done it--why should they even bother when they've got rooms full of world-class gear at their immediate disposal? never the less, it's the fact that they even *mention* that the mackie-class mixers have usable pres that really took me by surprise.

and regardless of ANY of the "technical" talk in said Massey book, every single producer interviewed, time and again (and some of them almost harp on it), state that you don't have a damn thing unless the song is great. it ALL begins with the song. and if you don't have musicians that can play that song to its fullest extent, all the gear in the world isn't going to make a hill's worth of difference.


cheers,
wade

 

[johnsuitcase]

LOL....
Again, I want to take up for good pres AND good mics.
BOAF UM-
I think DECENT MIC (500 buck ish decent)
1,000 ish Mic pre=
GOOD SOUND!
Why don't people talk about Vintech...
VINTECH VINTECH VINTECH
Suitcase...the thing that makes your recordings good to my ears is the ARTISTS....The mic sounds like the way I remember the SP C1 sounding when I tried it out. So I guess it isn't that different from the B1. The guitars sound really nice to me.
I think everything sounds nice...but GO PRE GO MIC GO!
And as far as the theory that if you think it sounds good, you will....hmmm
that is possible. psychology maybe?... For me again...the biggest improvement I have ever experienced was the Vintech x73i. I LOVE IT! Oh and Suitcase...
By the style of music you have been recording...
Are you familiar with the GET UP KIDS...(new stuff), This Day And Age, The Umbrellas (guy in lyndsey diaries)...
Ed Rose Produces these guys all very cool genres...
Check Out Black Lodge Recording
He personally told me to get a Vintech x73i and I wouldn't desire another pre for a LONG while. He also used a SP T3 (500 bucks) for the This Day And Age vocals. THEY SOUNDED KILLER! And he used an MXL 990 (60 bucks) through the Vintech Pre...those vox were killer too.

Thanks for the tip, I'll check those out. I was at TapeOpCon this year, and Rupert Neve was there (an honor to see the man in person.) Of course, he was trying to say that the newer Neve clones didn't have the 'soul' of the originals. I can understand his feelings on the subject, has anyone heard the new Rupert Neve Designs stuff?

http://www.rupertneve.com/

Another product I actually did hear at the con was the Groove Tubes Vipre and Glory Comp. Both are very nice, though or $3500, they should be!

 

[CCS]

I don't have any mic that is worth more than 500 bucks....I've even tried an MXL 990 and it sounded great too.
I say DECENT MIC and GREAT PRE.

Not to be critical of budget mics, since I've used then on more than one ocassion. I've heard how wonderful some of these budget wonder mics are, but I have yet to hear one that floors me, so until then, I prefer a GREAT MIC with a GREAT PRE. I was fortunate to acquire some high end pieces years ago, before they went through the roof. However, I'm still open to finding that budget wonder mic

 

[Middleman]

well, according to the copyright on the book, it came out in 2000--and most of the interviews seem to have taken place in 1999......so unless i'm in some sort of timewarp, i'd hazard a guess that mackies came out a fair bit before that. and i sure don't remember a lot of mackie hype in 2000.....



well, of course none of them admit to actually having done it--why should they even bother when they've got rooms full of world-class gear at their immediate disposal? never the less, it's the fact that they even *mention* that the mackie-class mixers have usable pres that really took me by surprise.

and regardless of ANY of the "technical" talk in said Massey book, every single producer interviewed, time and again (and some of them almost harp on it), state that you don't have a damn thing unless the song is great. it ALL begins with the song. and if you don't have musicians that can play that song to its fullest extent, all the gear in the world isn't going to make a hill's worth of difference.


cheers,
wade

There was a lot of hype when Mackies low end mixers came out and subsequently Behringer produced its line of low end mixers to compete. This was in 1999. But the Mackies had already been out awhile prior to this.

Not disagreeing with the talent thing and the need for it however, all of the people in the book and many others, still turn to high end preamps when they want to capture their talent. Not always expensive mics however.

Regarding Rupert Neve, I have a pair of his new preamps arriving Monday. From what I have heard, they do capture the "soul" of the original. The Portico 5012, from what the Gearslutz crowd are saying, stand up to the older models like the 1073, 1081 and 1084.

 

[CoolCat]

Talent and Equipment

Not disagreeing with the talent thing and the need for it however, all of the people in the book and many others, still turn to high end preamps when they want to capture their talent. Not always expensive mics however.
QUOTE]

yeah my favorite analogy on "talent versus equipment" is the Beatles Anthology.
Same musicians...so the variable/difference is
one version recorded is "crap" and the other version recorded via
Abbey Road w/ Engineering and pro-equipment..the full process.

My own experience...#2 analogy
I had one of my songs done in a "pro studio" by "trained-degree'd musicians" in a pro facility.
My HR version was enough to get picked from numerous others, mind you it sounded like sht, listening back on it (so yes the song was the key..melody, hook, words?).
But the pro-recorded version was like 1000x's better recording than mine...it still gets me high listening to the pro version.

hell they did my song better than i did!!

this project was based around some singer they were starting to produce, needing Original material.

bragging rights:
it made 1st Track location to on the demo...which is good i think, based off
George Martin, once said he placed the best material at 1,3,5 and last track of the b-side or some sht...it's out there somewhere.

 

[acorec]

Her name is Yolanda Bejarano, she's a local Phoenix artist, used to sing for a group called Slugger back in the 90's. We recorded that in her dining room.

I should mention that I used a Studio projects B1 on the vocals, two Groove Tube GT44s on the guitar and a Oktava MK219 about 15 feet back for the room.

And I didn't mean, in my earlier post, that we couldn't hear the difference if we were sitting there A/Bing the different mics (Neumann versus B1 or whatever). You can hear the difference between any two mics in that situation. And of course, the difference is largely subjective. I may like a mic with a little rougher highend, and pronounced mids. Whichever comes closer to my preference is the one I'll choose, if it's a blind test.

The problem is that 9 times out of ten, if I told you that I recorded with a B1 through a bluletube, when I really used a neumann through an API, you probably wouldn't be able to call me out on it. And vice versa. The API is better, yes, but in context, in a piece of music, the difference is so small that only the most well-trained ears may be able to pick it out.

Now, I'm not saying that having better gear won't improve my recordings, it probably will to some degree. But part of that will be my confidence level. If I'm sitting there thinking "Wow, this sounds really good", I'm going to put more into it, and so is the artist. Now, it may not actually sound better, but we all think it does, and that matters.

Do you see my point? If having an API mic pre makes you feel like you're getting better results, you'll get better results. But it's not necessarily the Pre that's making the difference.

Or maybe I'm just nuts.

For the most part, in most situations, you are right. The problem with homerecording and this BBS especially is that most people have cheap consumer equipment in a non-treated or do-it-yourself treated (meaning no treated) room. These people come here and argue how they hear no difference between pre-amps and then go and create posts asking which $100 pre-amp is better. People like this will never solve their "problem" because they don't understand that the whole signal chain, source and room IS the problem. You can't make a system sound better by replacing 1 part. But, if everything is right and you can hear what is going to tape, then pre-amps do make a big difference/ I would say as much as changing mics.

 

[Middleman]

Here, here. Good post.

 

[warble]

I think I may have liked that last post myself....makes complete sense to me.

 

[cominginsecond]

But, if everything is right and you can hear what is going to tape, then pre-amps do make a big difference/ I would say as much as changing mics.

But even in a crappy, untreated room you can easily tell the difference between mics, not so for preamps. Because the differences between preamps gets lost in a crappy tracking and listening environment and the differences between mics doesn't, this suggests to me that upgrading your mics will make a much more noticeable improvement in your sound than upgrading your preamps. Of course, upgrading both is the ideal.

Anyway, that's why I think it's crazy that so many folks with an exclusively cheap Chinese mic locker are getting their third channel of Avalon or whatever.