Pre Amps? Worth it or a waste of $$

[Blade_Jones]

I see these preamps like Focusrite and Avalon selling for big bucks, but can you really hear a difference? Or is it so minimal that you can't tell the difference between running one and not using one at all (like the difference between a $200 ATM 3035 and a Neumann TLM 103)? A firend of mine a major studio thinks that preamps are like a fad.

 

[Massive Master]

Preamps a fad? What the hell does he think are in all those half-million dollar consoles that makes them so expensive?

The difference between cheapie preamps and nice preamps is stunning. Even with cheapie microphones. A 57 through an Amek sounds worlds different than through a stock Mackie or something... There's no comparison.

Of course, the HUGE upsurge in available preamps is courtesy of the whole digital revolution - Back before consoles were thrown together with gaff tape and a prayer, you could usually count on getting fairly decent stock preamps in a decent console. Now, with so many home, project and even full-service studios going towards a "no console" format, the availability of wonderfully flavored preamps makes just having a console almost obsolete. A giant buffet of spices from bland to overdone, cool to warm, clean to dirty.

Preamps a fad? That's like saying decent microphones are passing fancy...

 

[Stefan Elmblad]

On the other hand, if you can't hear the differance between a 3035 and a 103, you might be better off spending your money on monitors or the ear doctor.

 

[Warhead]

On the other hand, if you can't hear the differance between a 3035 and a 103, you might be better off spending your money on monitors or the ear doctor.

This should be the thread stopper but I'm sure it won't be. There is something going on there, either that or he has the only 1 AT3035 and 1 TLM103 in the world that happen to sound alike.

War

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

I see these preamps like Focusrite and Avalon selling for big bucks, but can you really hear a difference?

200% yes....

Or is it so minimal that you can't tell the difference between running one and not using one at al?

Only if ones ears aren't sufficiently developed to hear the difference, or their monitor chain/rig is so lacking that the difference is not apparent.

A firend of mine a major studio thinks that preamps are like a fad.

Then your friend, unfortunately, is clueless about sound engineering, practices and techniques - also, see point #2 above!

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

OT - hey Warren....

I haven't been able to get to your new forum site in the last couple of days.... is it down? Or maybe DNS issue on the URL? Is there an IP number associated to the site?

 

[DonGraham]

On the other hand, if you can't hear the differance between a 3035 and a 103, you might be better off spending your money on monitors or the ear doctor.

Probably skip strasight to the ear doctor

 

[xstatic]

The good news is that if you can't tell the difference that building a studio will be very inexpensive

 

[OneRoomStudios]

So without a preamp how do you plan to use a microphone? Just plug it in to the line in on your computer and go?

I think you're misunderstanding a fundamental principle of using microphones. Microphones put out very little signal. The point of the preamp is to get that signal up to a decent operating level. In many ways, the preamp is the most important part of your chain.


And just in case your post was supposed to be a joke....it failed, sorry.

 

[Warhead]

I haven't been able to get to your new forum site in the last couple of days.... is it down? Or maybe DNS issue on the URL? Is there an IP number associated to the site?

Bruce, we switched the site over Thursday because they said it would take typically 24 to 48 hours. Well, they did it in like 2 hours...and since then our forums are down (yes it's a DNS issue and tech support is of course closed for the weekend...we were given the IP # for the forums and then the company handling this DNS switching stuff on the other end says it's not right) our email is out (they didn't tell us THAT little detail before hand...we would have waited until Friday night to switch it at least!) and we're totally in limbo EXCEPT for the site itself right now which is 100% new and functioning. I'm hoping tomorrow (Monday) the forums will be back up and our email will be back.

Until then...Friday was so frustrating trying to get these companies to communicate and get things back up again...I pretty much washed my hands of worrying about it and am just enjoying the weekend.

Don't give up on us, it should be up tomorrow? We have a lot of yelling and screaming to do on the phone with a few slacker web techies tomorrow...haha...aggravating shit!

War

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

We have a lot of yelling and screaming to do on the phone with a few slacker web techies tomorrow...haha...aggravating shit!

I hear ya -- yeah, that's always fun! I've been dealing with ISP issues myself lately (mostly DNS failures in accessing sites), which is why I asked you -- I wanted to be sure the issue was at my end before I started laying into MY ISP!

 

[HapiCmpur]

The difference between cheapie preamps and nice preamps is stunning. Even with cheapie microphones. A 57 through an Amek sounds worlds different than through a stock Mackie or something... There's no comparison.

Let me tap into Blade's question (and Massive's answer) with a related question of my own. How do know when it's worth the money to upgrade a preamp?

For example, my Yamaha AW2816 has two built-in preamps and phantom power. (And no, I don't even know enough about preamps to know if that statement is redundant or not). I think I'm getting a strong signal from my mic when I plug it into the recorder through those preamps, but I'd still pay for an outboard preamp if I had some way of knowing that it would improve my sound without breaking my bank. Is there a way to figure this out without having to bring home and test drive several preamps? Are there certain specs to look for? How much do you have to spend these days to get a "good" mic preamp? And's what's the likelihood that I could do appreciably better than my Yamaha's preamps without spending a bundle?

 

[jonnyc]

You do need to get your ears to the point where you can hear the differences in pre's. Most people can hear the difference they just don't know it, all they know is the song sounds "better". I recently bought a Presonus Eureka, mostly to fill my desire to spend money, and didn't really think I'd hear any difference from my focusrite pre's on my 002r. As soon is i plugged it all up and set the sm57 close to the snare and started recording I could hear a huge difference. I even looked at the guy that helps me out and said "can you believe that"? He couldn't, now he won't leave me alone about buying another. The snare sound I get thru that compared to my 002r pre's is huge. I even had a bass player sit down and I asked him which snare sounded better, it was just pre vs. pre no compression or eq, he instantly picked the snare recorded with the Eureka. I can't wait to upgrade to something like an Avalon or Neve's new little ditty. I'm addicted to pre's.

 

[Warhead]

I even had a bass player sit down and I asked him which snare sounded better, it was just pre vs. pre no compression or eq, he instantly picked the snare recorded with the Eureka.

This sentence is funny...if you're not a bass player! OK maybe it wasn't meant as a joke but it reads like one..."even the bass player heard it!"...haha

HapiCmpur, you asked Are there certain specs to look for? How much do you have to spend these days to get a "good" mic preamp? And's what's the likelihood that I could do appreciably better than my Yamaha's preamps without spending a bundle?

The specs on your Yamaha probably look pretty good on paper so don't be fooled by specs. You really need to use your ears. How much you have to spend is subjective, and depends on what you already own and if you like the sound of it or not. Without spending a bundle is hard to answer, not knowing what a "bundle" is in your mind. Many guys are willing to slap $1,000 per channel down to hear the difference and don't consider it to be a lot of jack, other guys squeal about having to spend more than $200.

Jonnyc loves the Eureka, a $500-ish box. In my opinion it's "ok" and certainly a step up or three from a cheap mixer's preamps, Presonus does pretty well in the bang for the buck department most times.

A Rane MS1B might be a step up in quality for you, at $150-ish it ain't bad. I personally think it's better suited to acoustic type sources than vocals etc but it's definitely decent.

The problem with preamps is you never know what's out there until you put it side by side with your own. Even then, you may only experience small differences. The GT Brick might put a smile on your face, in a totally different way than the Rane or Presonus though.

War

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

I can kinda understand the idea that *outboard* preamps are a little faddish- from a certain perspective. If one has a console full of fantastic pres then they could develop the perseption that outboard pres are silly. (shrug) Kinda like saying "Who needs strawberry and lime ice cream when you already have the BEST vanilla and chocolate in the house?"

There are more inexpensive pres on the market than ever before thanks to the viability of the mixer-less studio. Why spend $$$$$$$$ on a boutique console when all you need is to spend $$$$ on a boutique preamp? Then for the rest of use there is a host of $ preamps that get the job done. If one is comparing the $ pres to the ones in the console, yeah, you might think that outboard pres are a fad. Silly, but logical from that perspective.

The best pre I have is an RNP and it *kills* everything else I have hands down. I wish I had 8 of them mounted vertically in the rack. The next best are the pres on the Soundtracs SOLO console. Then the 002. Then the Art Tube MP's. And they tend to get used in that order. Even the classic consoles have "Golden Channels" even if its only the 2 channels that have the least scratchy pots that you could afford to have recapped.

-C

 

[jonnyc]

LOL sorry War that wasn't meant as a joke but I'm used to them being a drummer. You just have to know the bass player I work with on a regular basis. He doesn't play in any of my projects but his band is often in my studio. Anyway he's really terrible and has no ear for music at all. He's more one of those I wanna be a rock star kinda guys, but he has no talent. So the fact that even he could hear a difference in the two pre's inflates my opinion of the Eureka. Thats what I meant by that, eventhough I can easily see how that could come out as a joke.

 

[HapiCmpur]

The specs on your Yamaha probably look pretty good on paper so don't be fooled by specs. You really need to use your ears.

Thanks, War. I know that's an honest, straightforward answer, but I really don't have much choice but to rely either on specs or on expert opinions. For one thing, my ears are under-educated. For another, unless I buy a bunch of pres, I'm never going to have a chance to line 'em up for a fair shoot-out.

I guess the bottom line is that I could spend up to about $300 (maybe even $500) on a mic pre, but only if I was certain that it would give me a significant sound improvement over the pres already in my Yamaha. At the same time, I have to wonder if a mic upgrade might not be a better investment. I can't figure out how to make those kinds of decisions.

 

[jonnyc]

IMO pretty much anything from the Brick on up will give you a much better sound than your yamaha pre's. The only problem is if your ears aren't up to par yet you may not hear the difference. But even I'm still fairly new compared to most and I could hear the difference. I can almost guarentee you you'll get a better sound as long as you spend the cash. If you're really concerned about quality then buy from somewhere with a return policy if you don't like it send it back.

 

[Warhead]

I guess the bottom line is that I could spend up to about $300 (maybe even $500) on a mic pre, but only if I was certain that it would give me a significant sound improvement over the pres already in my Yamaha...

Uh huh.

...unless I buy a bunch of pres, I'm never going to have a chance to line 'em up for a fair shoot-out.

Uh huh again and you keep solving your own dilemna. Keep in mind that upgrading your preamps will probably next lead to upgrading converters and it just heads up the line from there.

At the same time, I have to wonder if a mic upgrade might not be a better investment. I can't figure out how to make those kinds of decisions.

Aahh yes, and without knowing what your mic locker looks like I'd have no idea where to send you in your quest for improvement. Also, if you're doing home demo stuff and already happy with the sound why bother dropping the coin?

I often wonder how many guys who ask "what preamp for recording guitar?" would be better served dropping a grand on two or three amps for more flavors of actual sound rather than what they're running a mic through.

I'm a big believer in having 2 great channels minimum. Great preamps, great cables, great converters. The reason I feel this way is because after drum recording 99% of everything we do is one or two channels at a time (guitars, vocals, keys, bass, percussion, etc) so having those 2 great channels really adds up over the course of a project. And even during drum tracking to use those 2 great channels for overheads (or kick / snare) makes sense.

War

 

[xstatic]

Pre's aren't a fad. I have a huge console with lots of incredible preamps in it. I still love outboard pre's I guess its like donuts. One get one chocolate frosted donut when you could have a dozen assorted ones including the chocolate frosted one