Pre amps on 4 tracks

[Dr ZEE]

the insert return bypasses the pre-amps to the fader

Incorrect. The insert return does not bypass anything. It is just a point, and it is where it is, and it is there because the designer of the mixer have decided to make it there. It is commonly after channel's gain stage, which makes practical sense. Designes of channel's gain stages vary from mixer to mixer. There are popular designs, of course, which have practical sense mostly for a manufacturer of a mixer and not necessarily for a user.
Insert point is designed for inserting a device. It is not designed for connecting a line-level output device. It is not designed to be used as input option to provide ability to bypass what ever may happen to be "before the insert point". Line level input is designed for connecting any line level output device.
Having said that, of course, One can connect anything to anything what's connectable. It may work. Often does. Often does not. People do it all the time. I have no problems with that. I have problems with misrepresentations, misinformation and ultimate confusions.

The manual has references ...

uh!! , what would we do without manuals and without references?

Every studio I have ever been in uses a patchbay directly to the recorder or insert return for external pre-amps.

I'll take your word on that one.

Unless you have a standalone recorder ... then there is no way to connect an external pre-amp to ... setup unless (there are) inserts.

Incorrect.

End of discussion.

I am not discussing anything with you. I am making the facts straight.
Speaking of "ends of discussions", let me remind something here (for folks who love to 'discuss' a thing or two from time to time at homerecording.com's boards:

End of discussion.
Go back to your reguarly scheduled life..

in context here: https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=209246
**********

There are amps that amplify voltage gain...

Gain is ratio. Signal Output level to Signal Input Level ratio, that is. Amplifiers do not amplify Gain. Gain is something that characterizes amplification. I hope japanese people would agree with that. Or would they?
It's OK, MCI, I understand, 25 years in engineering and all that, I mean, - hell!, that's a long way and time is a brutal bitch.

/later

 

[MCI2424]

Incorrect. The insert return does not bypass anything. It is just a point, and it is where it is, and it is there because the designer of the mixer have decided to make it there. It is commonly after channel's gain stage, which makes practical sense. Designes of channel's gain stages vary from mixer to mixer. There are popular designs, of course, which have practical sense mostly for a manufacturer of a mixer and not necessarily for a user.
Insert point is designed for inserting a device. It is not designed for connecting a line-level output device. It is not designed to be used as input option to provide ability to bypass what ever may happen to be "before the insert point". Line level input is designed for connecting any line level output device.
Having said that, of course, One can connect anything to anything what's connectable. It may work. Often does. Often does not. People do it all the time. I have no problems with that. I have problems with misrepresentations, misinformation and ultimate confusions.

uh!! , what would we do without manuals and without references?

I'll take your word on that one.

Incorrect.

I am not discussing anything with you. I am making the facts straight.
Speaking of "ends of discussions", let me remind something here (for folks who love to 'discuss' a thing or two from time to time at homerecording.com's boards:

in context here: https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=209246
**********

Gain is ratio. Signal Output level to Signal Input Level ratio, that is. Amplifiers do not amplify Gain. Gain is something that characterizes amplification. I hope japanese people would agree with that. Or would they?
It's OK, MCI, I understand, 25 years in engineering and all that, I mean, - hell!, that's a long way and time is a brutal bitch.

/later

Whatever Zee. You have shown yourself to have no knowledge of electronics at all.

Hopefully someone with some knowledge will chime in.

Have a good time.

 

[Stevebol]

I decided to go with a battery powered phantom power supply.Something tells me I'm not going to be able to come to any conclusions about using a pre amp.A good mic makes all the difference no matter what setup you have.
The big challenge now is figuring out how to get something to sound good and be in sync on Youtube.I just want to start with simple songs recorded on the cassette and the camcorder at the same time.I'll sync them up as best I can in Vegas Movie Studio.I use FL Studio for non-acoustic stuff,and Goldwave seems to have good noise reduction if that's needed.Maybe I should worry about sync problems when the time comes but I keep reading about people seeing their videos all out of sync with the audio,even without secondary audio sources.If you think applying pre-amps is confusing try compressing audio and video for the net.

You guys have been a great help.Thanks again.

 

[MCI2424]

Can the pre amps on Tascam 4 tracks(model 464) be bypassed in order to use an external pre and is it worth the trouble?

Go here to find out a real answer to your question. These guys know what is up with this. You have a very common question:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=244269&highlight=Pre-amp&page=2

Just read the whole thing and you will get a good idea as to what you can do.

Good Luck

 

[Stevebol]

Yes.I read that before I started this thread but I'll have to read it again.It should make more sense now.As for the video/audio bussiness,I made a suggestion to BBS Feedback to have a board just for that.It may not be of much interest to many people right now but in the future I'm guessing it will be.

 

[A Reel Person]

...

The Sub-Ins patch directly to the L/R-Stereo (main) buss, & bypasses the entire mixer section with exception of the Master fader.

 

[Whoopysnorp]

So what I still want to know is this: if your mixer doesn't have a line in that can bypass the preamp but it does have an insert, can you still use it even if your external preamp only has a balanced output?

 

[Dr ZEE]

Hopefully someone with some knowledge will chime in.

That already had occured:

... external preamp to the 5/6 or 7/8 Line Inputs.

All or almost all signals in a typical board are (at 0 VU) at line level. This means that these various amps are used for buffering and isolation as well as EQ. And have very little gain, and add very little noise, color etc. Their noise and distortions are much lower than the signal and are only amplified a limited amount.

*********
and then there are "Pros":

Passing a signal through an amplifier will amplify (add gain).
There are many types of amplifiers. There are amps that amplify voltage gain (mic pres for example) and amps that amplify current (like Balanced line drivers).
Just because an amp does'nt amplify signal voltage, does'nt mean it is not an amplifier.
All op amps and transitors are amplifiers, even unity gain designs.

at least you've got one thing right: "There are many types of amplifiers." .
Yes! Correct.
Not all of them amplify (the input signal, that is). Some of them provide on demand, or say - ensure.
What's the difference? A fundamental one.
Does it matter? Probably not. But understanding of it may help to cure the fear of cheap op-amps and such in the infected minds of many victims of "warriors for the industry". Well, there's a little problem here, however, and that is , that understanding takes work and requires persistence and, worst of all, it ultimately puts in jeopardy the sweet sweet pride of ownership (or a perspective of such state). As a fact, it may be so bad, that in some cases, it may take the entire meaning of life away. And who wants that as a consequence?

**********

Whatever Zee. You have shown yourself to have no knowledge of electronics at all.

Correct.
Shamelessly so.

Have a good time.

Not a chance. To much dirty work to do and all for free.
Also, MCI, STOP sending me private messages with your dumb threats of removing me from this board. You are wasting postages. Send a sorry letter to your girlfreand or something instead.
Do what you gotta do. If you gotta shot, just shoot then, don't talk.

 

[Dr ZEE]

So what I still want to know is this: if your mixer doesn't have a line in that can bypass the preamp but it does have an insert, can you still use it even if your external preamp only has a balanced output?

Interconnections here: http://www.rane.com/note110.html
insert diagram here: http://catalyst.washington.edu/help/audio/images/mackie_mixer_ref_img_2.jpg (your "target" is ring (return), sleeve is ground)

 

[Stevebol]

The 464 manual seems clear on this."The stereo inputs have no trim control so it cannot accept microphone signals unless they are preamplified."

To me that means try your preamp in channels 5/6-7/8 if you want,but don't bother using a pre with channels 1-4 because you will be adding un-needed components.

 

[A Reel Person]

Hello!

3 days ago someone already made that point!

 

[A Reel Person]

You guys had me going for the manual, too, at this point.

Okay, to bypass the mic preamps, you'd use Inputs 5/6 or 7/8 as stereo pairs or Input 5 or 7 for bridged mono on 5/6 and 7/8, respectively.

The Inputs 5/6/7/8 have no preamps, however they do have one (apparently) unity gain op amp as a buffer, as well as op amp circuits for EQ, per input.

To be an absolute purist about routing your outboard preamplified signal directly thru to the tape inputs with no chance of adulteration or coloration from any circuitry in the onboard mixer, you'd use the Sub-Ins, which patch directly to the Main Buss.

Do Not Pass Go. Do Not Collect $200.

 

[MCI2424]

That already had occured:




*********
and then there are "Pros":

at least you've got one thing right: "There are many types of amplifiers." .
Yes! Correct.
Not all of them amplify (the input signal, that is). Some of them provide on demand, or say - ensure.
What's the difference? A fundamental one.
Does it matter? Probably not. But understanding of it may help to cure the fear of cheap op-amps and such in the infected minds of many victims of "warriors for the industry". Well, there's a little problem here, however, and that is , that understanding takes work and requires persistence and, worst of all, it ultimately puts in jeopardy the sweet sweet pride of ownership (or a perspective of such state). As a fact, it may be so bad, that in some cases, it may take the entire meaning of life away. And who wants that as a consequence?

**********

Correct.
Shamelessly so.

Not a chance. To much dirty work to do and all for free.
Also, MCI, STOP sending me private messages with your dumb threats of removing me from this board. You are wasting postages. Send a sorry letter to your girlfreand or something instead.
Do what you gotta do. If you gotta shot, just shoot then, don't talk.

You are just sad.
Why can't you just end it already?

Broken record dude.

 

[AndyK12]

This post is amazing.

I have to say, between MCI and Z, this has been kind of the most meandering, pyschotic, pyschadelic post I've read in a long time.


Awesome!

 

[Stevebol]

I didn't mean to start it,but this did provide a lot of valuable info from people with experience in this.