Pre amps on 4 tracks
- Thread starter Stevebol
- Start date
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
...
Q) Can it be done?
A) Yes, by going from the external preamp to the 5/6 or 7/8 Line Inputs.
Q) Is it worth the trouble?
A) I say no, but it depends on who you ask. Some people believe an external preamp is always better than ones built into a mixer, but it depends on the specific mixer, & I don't believe that as a general statement. The preamps on the 464 are fine. The preamp and channel strip of the 464 will do e'thing an external pre can do except provide phantom power, so if that's your issue then have at it.
Q) Can it be done?
A) Yes, by going from the external preamp to the 5/6 or 7/8 Line Inputs.
Q) Is it worth the trouble?
A) I say no, but it depends on who you ask. Some people believe an external preamp is always better than ones built into a mixer, but it depends on the specific mixer, & I don't believe that as a general statement. The preamps on the 464 are fine. The preamp and channel strip of the 464 will do e'thing an external pre can do except provide phantom power, so if that's your issue then have at it.
cjacek
Analogue Enthusiast
Speaking of preamps and cassette decks...... I recall, several years back, when I first got into the analog thing, a sales guy sold me on a higher end and quite expensive mic preamp, for my lowly TASCAM 414MK2. The thing cost like 1200 bones but I didn't know any better. I'm glad I returned it within the 30 day return back policy. The issue is with using a costly mic pre with a cassette based unit and I personally would not do it. I'd rather take the money and get an effects unit and even an open reel deck or a nice mixer to go with the reel but when it comes to all-in-one designs and especially cassettes, I'd work with the stock product. I'd go even further to say that you don't need an external mic pre for any TASCAM / TEAC product. They're fine as is.
You would have to have a channel insert to really bypass the stock pre-amps. Unless you can bypass the mic pre/line pre then any external pre-amp will be useless as the stock pre-amp will always be in line. All good mixing boards have the channel inserts for this reason (as well as effects send/return)
Connecting a good mic-pre-amp to a line/mic pre-amp channel is the #1 reason people end up thinking that an expensive pre-amp sound like the channel pre-amp.
Well, if you don't have a insert then they will sound the same.
I'll give it a try when I pick up my deck tomorrow, but from what I've read everywhere it seems a waste.I do know from the little bit of digital recording I tried there was a huge difference between the sound of Shure 57 and 58 mics,and the sound of my Oktava mics.Night and day.Those and the 464 should give me the sound I want.There was a very long thread about the pre amp/4 track thing in another section but I couldn't get much from it.Thanks for your input.
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
Really? Is it so?MCI2424 said:
WOW! You really never know what you may learn from a "pro". It's getting better by the day
So is it how you connect you Avalon(s) and Focusrite(s) and such from all of your four racks full of them? Uh, I see.
hmmmmm'
And is it how "real pros" do it with their good mixers and their top of the line preamps with only balanced outputs and all that sh*t?
If so, then how do they do it? Do they make special "boxes" or cables for such endeavors? (Let's see, it may go something like this, heh heh: "Just tie 'em up, glue 'em to the sleeve, hell with the tip , where ever that thing may lead a lost lone heart and what not...LOL)
************
oh boy,MCI2424 said:
I don't even know where to start. I am not going to, because I am really getting pretty sick of it. So I'll just say this: The quote above as a whole and every single part of it is a sad manifestation of sanctimonious delusion (from technical point and any other way you may wish to spin it), that's all.
arghhh,
**********
What?!!!!!!!!!!! Bypass the mic pre?!MCI2424 said:
How can one "not to bypass" mic pre of the mixer with anything but a microphone?
(unless some dude got a preamp with balanced outputs and some XLR-male-ended cables to screw things around). Oh, and by the way, if there is a dude out there who has managed "NOT to bypass" mic preamp of the mixer with output from his super-duper hot-shot preamp, then !!! heh heh heh, what he's going to hear is going to be nothing "like the channel pre-amp "sounding" on it's own", . Not a chance
. And, btw, what ever "the channel pre-amp" ment to mean there, because, here - We are very confused already by all sorts of things and meanings, inflicted upon our sinful heads by a messenger from The Pro-World.Hey, MCI, you gotta try that "mic preamp OUT to another mic preamp IN" thing yourself, it could be fun (of course, if you actually have something to try it with?
)...oh, but wait. No! Forget about it. Becuase, as usually, you have no idea what I am talking about.
*******
Line Pre? What's line "pre". Or do you mean "Gain Stage" of the channel?
Yes, inserts are after that thing. So?
There is absolutely no freaking reason for Bypassing it with the line level signal. It can NOT simply "undo" the signal that comes from an external microphone preamplifier and make it somehow "sounding the same" as it was coming from "on board" microphone preamplifier. Well, It will "sound" the same if the external and on-board preamps are the same. Doh.
/later
**************
btw,
P.S.
PreAmps don't sound. They amplify and provide. While they do what they do, sh*t happens, and that's why there is such thing as "great preamp" as we know it (or who ever knows it and what ever that may be, that is)
Expansive preamps are great. We all know That. Or do we not?
...and what not.
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
...
Inputs 5/6 and 7/8 are line level inputs without preamps.
Inputs 5/6 and 7/8 are line level inputs without preamps.
Really? Is it so?
WOW! You really never know what you may learn from a "pro". It's getting better by the day
So is it how you connect you Avalon(s) and Focusrite(s) and such from all of your four racks full of them? Uh, I see.
hmmmmm'
And is it how "real pros" do it with their good mixers and their top of the line preamps with only balanced outputs and all that sh*t?
If so, then how do they do it? Do they make special "boxes" or cables for such endeavors? (Let's see, it may go something like this, heh heh: "Just tie 'em up, glue 'em to the sleeve, hell with the tip , where ever that thing may lead a lost lone heart and what not...LOL)
************
oh boy,
I don't even know where to start. I am not going to, because I am really getting pretty sick of it. So I'll just say this: The quote above as a whole and every single part of it is a sad manifestation of sanctimonious delusion (from technical point and any other way you may wish to spin it), that's all.
arghhh,
**********
What?!!!!!!!!!!! Bypass the mic pre?!
How can one "not to bypass" mic pre of the mixer with anything but a microphone?
Oh, and by the way, if there is a dude out there who has managed "NOT to bypass" mic preamp of the mixer with output from his super-duper hot-shot preamp, then !!! heh heh heh, what he's going to hear is going to be nothing "like the channel pre-amp "sounding" on it's own", . Not a chance
Hey, MCI, you gotta try that "mic preamp OUT to another mic preamp IN" thing yourself, it could be fun (of course, if you actually have something to try it with?
...oh, but wait. No! Forget about it. Becuase, as usually, you have no idea what I am talking about.
*******
Line Pre? What's line "pre". Or do you mean "Gain Stage" of the channel?
Yes, inserts are after that thing. So?
There is absolutely no freaking reason for Bypassing it with the line level signal. It can NOT simply "undo" the signal that comes from an external microphone preamplifier and make it somehow "sounding the same" as it was coming from "on board" microphone preamplifier. Well, It will "sound" the same if the external and on-board preamps are the same. Doh.
/later
**************
btw,
P.S.
PreAmps don't sound. They amplify and provide. While they do what they do, sh*t happens, and that's why there is such thing as "great preamp" as we know it (or who ever knows it and what ever that may be, that is)
Expansive preamps are great. We all know That. Or do we not?
...and what not.
Please get your facts straight before bashing me.
You don't need balanced ins/outs to hook up a pre-amp.
Inserts are there to bypass the mic pre-amps.
Line inputs have pre-amps because they are amplifiers before the output (boost the signal as any amplifier does).
If you are gonna use an external pre-amp to bypass the 4 track recorder's pre-amps, you need inserts. If you do it like a pro, you go directly fron the pre-amp to the recorder.
This guy can't go directly to the recorder, so he has to use inserts to bypass *all* amplifiiers as any amp in line will add it's color (what he is trying to get rid of BTW).
Good mixers have un-balanced inserts for effects send/returns and are totally convienent for bypassing the stock pre-amps. For many tracks, this is a viable alternative.
You have no idea as to what you are talking about so you go ahead and PROVE me wrong.
And, stop the bashing as I as well as others are probably sick of it already.
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
I am not bashing you. I am getting facts straight.MCI2424 said:
Correct.MCI2424 said:
However, with all "your" avalons and such in your four racks, balanced outs - that's all you've got and have deal with
We are talking here about some "great" preamps, or are we not? Totally incorrect. That is not what inserts are for, nor can you bypass mic preamp of the mixer using inserts (that is in case if you face such "task", that's a "challenge" lol)MCI2424 said:
somewhat correct. You can call them "pre-amps" if you feel like it. They are amps to provide gain control (NOT to "boost the signal", but again, you can call things any way you feel likeMCI2424 said:
)But what most important to know here that bypassing that stage is totally unnecessary, unless there is something really really wrong with it.
I've heard that "shtick" - stick 1/4" half way into insert to "bypass" mixer's "pre-amps". It is IDIOTIC, but some "pros" do it anyway, they also gladly re-share the "tip" (even when they only have done this themselves only in their imagination, but not in fact).
I guess you can say that. In theory, of course. But even in theory, amps "do not "undo" per say something what an "amp" in previouse stage "has done" to a signal.MCI2424 said:
So if the "amp" in line is, let's just say, practically "transparent", then you can get all the "colors" and "juice" from your sparkling Avalon through it. Well, of course, you may (and most likely will) feel dirty letting your few grands worthy signal going through $.99 op-amp + $.02 resistors +labour . That hurts, I understand, and when it hurts so much, then you hear things, all sorts of things , that is
Correct.MCI2424 said:
I am not bashing you. I am getting facts straight. Wheather you and others are sick of it already I don't really care. I do care, however, that I am getting sick of it, or to be more specific, I am simply getting tired of it. So you never know. You actually soon will be able to screw around freely. Unless somebody else will do the f**&ng dirty work around here. I doubt it. so...MCI2424 said:
so, there.
/later
The preamp and channel strip of the 464 will do e'thing an external pre can do except provide phantom power, so if that's your issue then have at it.
You could always buy a phantom power supply unit and still use the 464 inputs with phantom-powered mikes. A single channel unit should be around $30 to $50.
Cheers,
Otto
I just got the 464 from the post office and got it going.Got tht manual today too from Tascam.Since my mics need phantom I'll be using the RNP pre I got a while back.It matches the Oktava mics(012,319) that I'm using.I'm blown away by the sound.I'm used to a Porta 1 I got in Japan way back in 1985, with a Shure 58. Maybe using pre's when you don't them (I do),is a trade off.The 464 pre's will color the sound but the external pre will allow you to keep the trim down on the recorder.I don't know.I haven't tried the 5/6 7/8 line level inserts yet,just the regular inserts.I need to get organized before I can give both a listen to see if there is a difference.I'm guessing there is very little.A good phantom powered mic would probably be ideal for this setup but I'll go with what I have.
Cleaning! This thing was pretty dusty so I drenched the pots and sliders in WD 40.This works great if you are carefull not to get it on belts and things like that.I have a degausser. I'm not sure what fluid to use to clean the heads.
Cleaning! This thing was pretty dusty so I drenched the pots and sliders in WD 40.This works great if you are carefull not to get it on belts and things like that.I have a degausser. I'm not sure what fluid to use to clean the heads.
True...but I think you will find that if you are using just a phantom power with your condenser microphones, there will be plenty of gain available on your preamps, as opposed to using dynamics. Condensers are usually pretty hot and offer plenty of gain. I have the same microphones you have, and am using two phantom power supplies, not preamps, and rarely find myself needing to open my trim much past the halfway mark. Really, you probably won't gain much from using your rnp fidelity wise, in front of your preamps. You might even be adding unnecessary noise to your recordings. Again, as I mentioned, I could be wrong about reamping your signal, but I have a feeling using external phantom power supplies will offer a cleaner overall signal than using your rnp in conjunction with your internal preamps. Anyone else on this?
evm1024
New member
Glad to see us back on topic
I'm no expert on all the ways people use their mixers...
I use a battery powered phantom supply on my no phantom board. Actually it is a battery or wall wart unit. I like battery because it tends to reduce the chance of low level hum . May not be a problem and is not needed on the phantom board I have (M312b)
I would not use inserts to introduce an external preamp signal into the chain. At least not as the first option. Their main use is for inserting something into the signal chain. Effects, gates, and who knows what else.
I do use external preamps depending on what I'm doing. Sometimes a DMP3 and other times a GR MP-2, JML Twin Servo or JH MPC1 that I built. Then I tend to go straight into a half-track rather than through the board. Just trying to keep it clean and direct as possible. Mostly Classical Organ.
Spendy mic-pre's do sound very nice but they are for getting that last 10%. I do use Oktavas (319 and 012) that I've modded. I've no experience with preamps with a distinctive sound. I like then clean and color free.
So if you want to use an external pre try line in or tape in or even effects return if you want to pan them around. Or perhaps sub in.... Let you manual be your guide.
As a side note:
All or almost all signals in a typical board are (at 0 VU) at line level. This means that these various amps are used for buffering and isolation as well as EQ. And have very little gain, and add very little noise, color etc. Their noise and distortions are much lower than the signal and are only amplified a limited amount. This is not the case with the mic pre where very low level signals (around 1 mV) are brought up 100 to 1000 times bringing up everything else with them.
regards
I'm no expert on all the ways people use their mixers...
I use a battery powered phantom supply on my no phantom board. Actually it is a battery or wall wart unit. I like battery because it tends to reduce the chance of low level hum . May not be a problem and is not needed on the phantom board I have (M312b)
I would not use inserts to introduce an external preamp signal into the chain. At least not as the first option. Their main use is for inserting something into the signal chain. Effects, gates, and who knows what else.
I do use external preamps depending on what I'm doing. Sometimes a DMP3 and other times a GR MP-2, JML Twin Servo or JH MPC1 that I built. Then I tend to go straight into a half-track rather than through the board. Just trying to keep it clean and direct as possible. Mostly Classical Organ.
Spendy mic-pre's do sound very nice but they are for getting that last 10%. I do use Oktavas (319 and 012) that I've modded. I've no experience with preamps with a distinctive sound. I like then clean and color free.
So if you want to use an external pre try line in or tape in or even effects return if you want to pan them around. Or perhaps sub in.... Let you manual be your guide.
As a side note:
All or almost all signals in a typical board are (at 0 VU) at line level. This means that these various amps are used for buffering and isolation as well as EQ. And have very little gain, and add very little noise, color etc. Their noise and distortions are much lower than the signal and are only amplified a limited amount. This is not the case with the mic pre where very low level signals (around 1 mV) are brought up 100 to 1000 times bringing up everything else with them.
regards
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
I'd say if avoiding "reamping a signal that's been amped" is a must do, then the only way to truly accomplish the complete elimination of such occurences is to "bypass" recording as a whole. (given that by "amping" one means passing a signal through an electronic circuit that technically happen to be an amplifier.)
To put it in short: if you choose to record in general, then "reamping an amped" is your unavoidable destiny. Live it and love it
The One who has chosen to live shall not fear to breathe.
Again, I guess, I can kind of appreciate the feeling one may have to deal with when facing the situation of a thousands dollars worthy signal passing through a 'fishy' network of couple of bucks worthy metal, carbon andsilicon.
It sucks.
and on that note, just to make one feel beter, here a sili'con':
To put it in short: if you choose to record in general, then "reamping an amped" is your unavoidable destiny. Live it and love it
The One who has chosen to live shall not fear to breathe.
Again, I guess, I can kind of appreciate the feeling one may have to deal with when facing the situation of a thousands dollars worthy signal passing through a 'fishy' network of couple of bucks worthy metal, carbon andsilicon.
It sucks.
and on that note, just to make one feel beter, here a sili'con':
Attachments
I am not bashing you. I am getting facts straight.
Correct.
However, with all "your" avalons and such in your four racks, balanced outs - that's all you've got and have deal with
Totally incorrect. That is not what inserts are for, nor can you bypass mic preamp of the mixer using inserts (that is in case if you face such "task", that's a "challenge" lol)
somewhat correct. You can call them "pre-amps" if you feel like it. They are amps to provide gain control (NOT to "boost the signal", but again, you can call things any way you feel like
But what most important to know here that bypassing that stage is totally unnecessary, unless there is something really really wrong with it.
I've heard that "shtick" - stick 1/4" half way into insert to "bypass" mixer's "pre-amps". It is IDIOTIC, but some "pros" do it anyway, they also gladly re-share the "tip" (even when they only have done this themselves only in their imagination, but not in fact).
I guess you can say that. In theory, of course. But even in theory, amps "do not "undo" per say something what an "amp" in previouse stage "has done" to a signal.
So if the "amp" in line is, let's just say, practically "transparent", then you can get all the "colors" and "juice" from your sparkling Avalon through it. Well, of course, you may (and most likely will) feel dirty letting your few grands worthy signal going through $.99 op-amp + $.02 resistors +labour . That hurts, I understand, and when it hurts so much, then you hear things, all sorts of things , that is
Correct.
I am not bashing you. I am getting facts straight. Wheather you and others are sick of it already I don't really care. I do care, however, that I am getting sick of it, or to be more specific, I am simply getting tired of it. So you never know. You actually soon will be able to screw around freely. Unless somebody else will do the f**&ng dirty work around here. I doubt it. so...
so, there.
/later
Looking at my mixer's schematic, the insert return bypasses the pre-amps to the fader.
The manual has references to using the insert return for external pre-amps.
Every studio I have ever been in uses a patchbay directly to the recorder or insert return for external pre-amps.
Unless you have a standalone recorder (not the original poster here) then there is no way to connect an external pre-amp to his setup unless he has inserts.
End of discussion.
Yes, Mr. EVM :!
Passing a signal through an amplifier and amplify signal using an amplifier ARE NOT the same things.
**********
Sorry, but I can't share the feeling.
/respects
Passing a signal through an amplifier will amplify (add gain).
There are many types of amplifiers. There are amps that amplify voltage gain (mic pres for example) and amps that amplify current (like Balanced line drivers).
Just because an amp does'nt amplify signal voltage, does'nt mean it is not an amplifier.
All op amps and transitors are amplifiers, even unity gain designs.