Physicist at IBM says: magnetic tapes superior storage media!

[The Ghost of FM]

But would you actually do it ? Go over to the "dark side" ?

I would if all of the functionality and sound quality of analog was equaled in a digital realm that I could afford, yes!

Seriously, would you miss the Analog as we know it to be currently ?

If they got their act together and to the point where I could comfortably move onto the next realm in digital, then no, I wouldn't miss it.

I know I would. Even if Digital reaches the above goals, I don't think I would ever replace my current setup.

~Daniel

Let's cross that bridge when we get to it.

Cheers!

 

[arjoll]

Until recently, tape drives were commonly used as backup at the Firestation Studios. The only 2 downsides to the format itself are: 1- it takes TIME to write/read data, and 2- there is no real-time data verification. So if an error occurs while writing data, you never know it happened until you go back and try to recall the file. But, of course, if your drive is in good shape, and you use tapes properly, that shouldn't be a huge big deal. Pretty reliable format for storage purposes, so I've heard.

You should always use both data verification and periodic test restores with any backup medium. What we always do with server installs is use both RAID and tape backup, and for critical data we may even copy to another physical disk periodically. For my own audio data I have copies on my home PC, work laptop, removable hard drive and the server at work.

In other words, for critical data:
* Have an offsite backup, tape is robust and cost effective.
* Use a redundant system such as RAID1 or RAID5.
* Make copies before modifying stuff.
* Copy to another physical media.

Different forms of tape also have advantages and disadvantages. DDS DAT (the latest is DDS5 or DAT72) is cheap and reasonably reliable, but a bit slow. LTO is faster and more reliable, but a bit more expensive. It has higher capacity though so we're doing more and more HP Ultrium LTO drives these days. DLT was regarded as rock-solid, but tapes are expensive and we don't see as much. Travan? Just say no!

I remember seeing somebody backing up their Pro-Tools session on a HP data tape downstairs, and once it finished backing up (a few hours later,) He tested the data, and tested if he could open each file, and play it back successfully from the data tape. About 4 hours later, I came back, and he was re-writing the tape, because he had found an error in his snare track. 2 hours later, he re-verified, and it was fine. But the whole ordeal took all damn day. At least he can rest assured that it's backed up for years to come.

For archival I'd take at least two copies, and also consider putting it on a different medium - hard drives are cheap, so it doesn't hurt to put a copy on there as well. That way you can have multiple disasters and still keep stuff.

...and of course if that data is audio, you also have your 2" 24 track master

 

[The Ghost of FM]

...although you'd be better to buy a brand new HP Ultrium drive for a similar price from an HP Premium Business Partner and get the three year warranty

True enough.

I only used ebay for a handy link, not to pimp anyone's particular auction.

Cheers!

 

[timboZ]

I have my 8 track tapes from the 70's and they sound as bad today as they did in the 70's...




So we have a trade off poor sound vers short life span.

 

[arjoll]

I've have a few commercial CD's that have turned to crap.
...
I've heard that eventually all CD's will succumb to this kind of disease.
True????? Urban legend?? Yet to be determined??

There have been bad batches of pressed CDs from certain plants that have suffered from CD rot - often the issue is a minute hole or not enough laquer to keep air from the aluminium surface resulting in oxidation.

I have a Crowded House single which looks like its suffering from this - I noticed too late.

I've also seen one pressed CD where the surface of the epoxy on the data side has clouded over, as if its oxidising. Coincidentially it was another Crowded House single which my brother had - cleaning the data side throughly in soapy water cleaned it up enough to copy the CD. Given the way he stores his music (you should see his vinyl!) I'm not convinced this was a manufacturing fault, it could have been something external attacking the epoxy.

Back to CDR's - I have had cheap ones crap out within a year, but generally I only use cheap CDRs or DVD-Rs for non-critical applications, not for long term storage. CDs for the car, that kind of thing. I still have CDRs, properly stored, which are working fine 5-6 years later.

I'm not advocating storing your only copy of something precious on a CDR, mind!

 

[arjoll]

I've not had as good an experience with storing data on hard drives unfortunately, having gone through 2 hard drive failures where I lost a lot files that I thought were sound as the pound. As well, I've also had a number of burned CD-Rs that after a few short years don't play properly, filled with unreadable files, though this did happen on no-name blanks for the most part.

But you've learned from the experience, right?

I have had numerous drive failures in my home PC, but have always had two drives installed. So far I have not lost anything really critical (except for my wife's email in a reload about five years ago - but that wasn't a crashed drive, but me not copying the right folder ).

The main thing is to realise the limitations of hard drives, CDRs, tape or whatever. You know the limitations of those SA90's and worked around them - stored away from magnetic fields, out of sunlight, etc etc. Its common sense. In the same way you work around the limitations of a hard drive - fast storage of large amount of data which will eventually die, so you make sure you have more than one copy. If you archive to CDR, keep a copy somewhere else and re-burn to another CDR periodically.

I have worked for 12 years in the accounting and IT industry, and one question clients have asked is "how often do I back up?" The answer is always this - how much are you prepared to re-do? If you don't mind re-processing a week's invoices and bank reconciliations if the system fails, then backup weekly; if that's intolerable then do it daily; if you're about to do something that could go wrong then back up immediately before doing it. Its the same with audio - if you're going to do something destructive then back up, if you've been trying to get that lead break sounding sweet for hours then back up the track straight away! (note: that last bit doesn't really apply to analogue)

 

[arjoll]

I dont know how true this is but a few years ago some people where saying that a labels glue can leach into the cd and screw up the data.
But this just might be one of those tails that gets started.

This is possible in theory, as is ink from the solvent in some kinds of pen. It depends on the kind of coating on the label side of the CD - I noticed on some cheap "Spin-X" (distributed by Imation) CDRs I have in the car that you can literally scratch the edge of the silver coating on the label side off with your fingernails - not a good sign. Verbatim ones with the 'Crystal' coating seem to be a lot more robust. Discs intended for inket printing should be a safe bet as well, as they have a coating to take the ink on the label side.

 

[cjacek]

I would if all of the functionality and sound quality of analog was equaled in a digital realm that I could afford, yes!

If they got their act together and to the point where I could comfortably move onto the next realm in digital, then no, I wouldn't miss it.

Let's cross that bridge when we get to it.

Cheers!

To be more specific, wouldn't you miss the mechanical system of levers and pulleys etc ... and also tape travel over the heads and HOW it printed the signal to tape etc ... ? Are you just concerned with the sound quality and ease of operation or also what is happening when all of this comes into play (no pun). What about the look and actual operation of a multitude of switches and sounds they make to move the reels or the motion of motors, breakes etc ... Hell, there's so much going on that bombards the senses when operating an analog piece of gear that digital, no matter how well executed, would lose out on.

~Daniel

 

[arjoll]

I think what the biggest problem is/was with many CD-Rs is the actual chemical compositions of the pitted layer that holds all the microscopic holes that represent the ones and zeros of the data. They basically break down on a chemical level over time and especially so when exposed to too much light which speeds up the molecular breakdown of the discs.

The problem is with the organic dye layer which the laser burns holes in - there are different dyes, and the cheapest ones just do not last. I tend to use Verbatim for valuable data, the 'metal azo' dye they use seems to be one of the more stable.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

But you've learned from the experience, right?

I have had numerous drive failures in my home PC, but have always had two drives installed. So far I have not lost anything really critical (except for my wife's email in a reload about five years ago - but that wasn't a crashed drive, but me not copying the right folder ).

When I had my two hard drive failures they came within a day of each other.

I had a secondary HD back up of everything that was on my main home computer and when it the first one died, I was mad but thought; oh well! I have everything minus a couple of days of stuff on the second hard drive which was on a different computer in another room in the house.

I took out the first dead drive and sent it back to the manufacturer as it was still under warranty and while waiting for the new one to arrive, the secondary HD died as well.

I lost so many files of music and pictures that I was nearly in tears at the horrible luck I was having. To top it off, because I was onto a dual HD back up routine, I became lazy with my CD data disc back up routine and when I had to go back to the most recent CD-R back ups I still had, I ran into a few of them that also had read problems...I honestly thought god was out to get me!

Now I still maintain a double HD regime and back up as well to Maxell DVD+R data discs.

Now I await the next coming of the locusts!

Cheers!

 

[arjoll]

When I had my two hard drive failures they came within a day of each other. I had a secondary HD back up of everything that was on my main home computer and when it the first one died, I was mad but thought; oh well! I have everything minus a couple of days of stuff on the second hard drive which was on a different computer in another room in the house.

Bummer That has got to be some of the worst luck!

 

[Beck]

Interesting thoughts...

I still have a TDK SA-60 from 1979 (from the first batch I ever bought). It still plays back fine. But the music is a little rough because I was bouncing sound-on-sound with two identical Akai top-loading cassette decks (wood trim and all).

Back then I used the cheap little plastic mics that came with recorders and a few little tricks like using an old slimline Panasonic cassette as a preamp for a distortion guitar sound. The AGC did some interesting gritty compression.

Anyway, it's still nicely preserved on tape and some of the riffs and melodies I came up with as a lad are still sort off interesting, even though the production was lacking a bit.

And of course all my portastudio tapes from the 80’s and on sound as good as new… also mostly TDK.

I wonder how many people using this or that digital recorder today will be able pull out an old box of whatever they're putting it on and listen to it 20+ years from now.

 

[60's guy]

*Many* at the U.S. Library of Congress have the same opinion about tape verses digital medium for long-term music preservation.

Who in the employee (expert) at the Library Of Congress (that you have had personal contact with) can factually veriify that tape preservation will outlive digital preservation?

I do both, Beck.

Personally.....I have a great amount of respect for your analog knowledge.

I also would expect that you could possibly be a bit more open minded.

Digital and Analog can coexist......

It was more than proved in the 80's.

Get over your lameass arguements concerning digital v. analog.

WTF!!!!!!

 

[arjoll]

I was bouncing sound-on-sound with two identical Akai top-loading cassette decks (wood trim and all).

GXC-46D by any chance?

 

[60's guy]

I wonder how many people using this or that digital recorder today will be able pull out an old box of whatever they're putting it on and listen to it 20+ years from now.

Great observation!

I have tapes dating back 30 years.

Are you so sure in saying that digi recordists won't be able to retrieve their recordings?

I hope that you are not that narrow minded.

 

[cjacek]

I hope that you are not that narrow minded.

Tim (Beck) "narrow minded" ? Are you nuts ??

 

[cjacek]

Great observation!

I have tapes dating back 30 years.

Are you so sure in saying that digi recordists won't be able to retrieve their recordings?

I hope that you are not that narrow minded.

And are YOU saying that current digital media WILL be readable in 20 or 30 years ?

 

[Beck]

I am a bit narrow-minded when it comes to the laws of thermodynamics. When something has deteriorated to the point of irretrievable it is irretrievable. Ask some of the early DAT users if they can play their old master tapes. Or just ask Steve Albini:

“DAT tapes deteriorate over time, and when they do, the information on them is lost forever. I have personally seen tapes go irretrievably bad in less then a month. Using them for final masters is almost fraudulently irresponsible. Tape machines ought to be big and cumbersome and difficult to use, if only to keep the riff-raff out. DAT machines make it possible for morons to make a living, and damage to the music we all have to listen to.”

--Steve Albini "The Problem With Music"
MaximumRocknRoll #133 June 1994

Craig Anderton had an interesting and related editorial on Harmony Central a few months ago. And this quote from Eddie Cilleti… and the defense rests.

“Analog machines will continue to be serviceable—now, after 20, 30 or 40 years and in the future—because they mostly consist of hardware that any skilled machinist can re-create. (No digital format will be as easy to support after manufacturers throw in the towel.)”

-Eddie Cilleti
Mix Magazine Aug. 2000

 

[cjacek]

AAAAMEN BROTHA TIM!

 

[Beck]

Who in the employee (expert) at the Library Of Congress (that you have had personal contact with) can factually veriify that tape preservation will outlive digital preservation?

I do both, Beck.

Personally.....I have a great amount of respect for your analog knowledge.

I also would expect that you could possibly be a bit more open minded.

Digital and Analog can coexist......

It was more than proved in the 80's.

Get over your lameass arguements concerning digital v. analog.

WTF!!!!!!

You should really hire someone locally to tie you up and whip your ass for you and get this out of your system, because I'm not going to keep doing it for free.