No low budget forum

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Dani Pace

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All the advice and suggestions from the guys with all the high end gear is always apreciated and welcome. However, I have noticed lots of people (myself included) are attempting to make decent sounding recordings with a minimum of gear or on a limited budget. I'm hoping those of us who are trying to work with these limitations might pool out ideas and discoveries and by shareing them help one another. I've heard some pretty decent sounding stuff which was done on minimal gear. Even with just a 4 track cassette, a few decent mics, a PC, moderate soundcard and simple recording software a fairly decent demo can be produced. Some of the greatest recordings were made using less.
Come on guys, add anything you have done or used that worked. Things like odd peices of equipment to inexpensive mics that work well, anything that has helped you without costing much.
For example, I often use a Yamaha MT120 4 track recorder instead of a mixer/preamp. It does the same thing, although limited to 4 chanels in and 2 chanels out, still it works quite well, especially since I rarely need to add more than one track at a time. Another thing I have done is to use cheap tinny mics for cymbals and occasionaly for back up vocals, cheap mics wont take much abuse and often have weak cables but in some cases the will work just fine.
OK I tossed out the first couple of ideas, now lets hear from the rest of you and any of your tips for cutting cost while still getting a decent recording.
 
....except for my computer, i have no piece of equipment that has a price tag of over $350...even the mixer. I'm not the kind of asshole that runs around telling people to save up their money for the most expensive thing, but the initial basic set is going to cost money.
 
distortedrumble said:
... but the initial basic set is going to cost money.
Click to expand...

It's like any other hobby that is equipment intensive--there are some basic minimum costs and they add up quickly. Having said that, if you absorb enough of the material on this BBS you find all kinds of comparatively inexpensive solutions that are endorsed by pros and hobbyists alike. The RNP and RNC come to mind as do some of the M-audio soundcards and Audio Technica mics--especially the 40 series.
 
first suggestion: for drum: TRIGGERS!!

not those yamaha ones, but the piezo buzzers from radioshack
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog_name=CTLG&product_id=273-060

i'm from canada and those are the only accessible except the 273-059, which kinda break easily. diy edrum websites suggest 273-073, but aven't tried them

i have found some at the abra electronics store for 1$CAN each www.abraelectronics.com if i'm not wrong.

with a delta1010lt soundcard, you just have to take 3 rca cables and cut them in two, so you can use triggers on kick snare and 4 toms.

so US dollars it will probably cost you like 7$, compared to 300$ for drum mics.

i even built myself an e-drum with those triggers converted from an acoustic drum.

only problem, you'll have to get drumagog which is a bit of money!

BUT!!

here is a do it yourself trigger to midi converter
http://edrum.info/
haven't done myself, bought a dm5 instead, but will start building one soon with an electonics crack friend

last links
http://edrum.for.free.fr/
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/DIYedrums/
lots of infos and pics for edrum there

Hope i'll get my first rep point with this message!
 
I recorded my first album (back before burnable CD's) by combining my Tascam Porta II High Speed with a friend's Fosex somethin-or-other. By running the direct outs of the fostex (which wasn't high speed) to the better sounding Tascam we were able to set both preamps LOWER and avoid the nasty noise you get when you turn the cheap pres up too high. We also maxed the pitch shift up all the way. Every extra bit of tape helps!

He went on to Full Sail and is now a pro studio owner- owns the Neve 8108 console that Santana recorded "Supernatural" on. He *still* tells me every now and then that our 4-track days are his favorite recording experiences- we actually had to be creative to get good results. It was a challenge. Now his main challenge is paying his bills, feeding his baby, and dealing with clients that don't know what the hell they're doing and want HIM to do it.

And you know the VCR trick, right? Instead of bouncing internally on the 4-track you record your 4-tracks to the super-fast-creamy-sounding-analogalicious audio channels of a stereo VCR. Then record that back to a different section of tape, add to more tracks, bounce to VCR, etc. The VCR sounds so much cleaner than most 4-tracks that you don't really notice any generation loss. I suppose you could do the same with a computer, but then you have to deal with the cheapo convertors in most computers. Not worth it if you have a Stereo VCR. Mix down to the VCR, record your album one song at a time to it- then make your cassette copies off the VCR master.

Here's another "trick": LISTEN to your gear with the headphones all the way up and no signal going through it. Play around with the volumes knobs at each stage of your recording chain (preamp? compressor? even your EQ knobs.) and listen for noise. Once you know where you noise is coming from you can take steps to avoid that range at that stage. I hope that makes sense. For example, if your EQ on track 3 of your 4-track is noisier than the rest you can only track things that aren't likely to need EQ on that channel. (I do this with the "expensive" gear that I use these days, too.)

When setting up your mic- crank the headphones and move the mic around until its as quiet as possible (least ambienty room sound, fridge noises, etc.) Then move yourself around the mic to get the sound you want out of it. Doesn't always work, but its a good place to start.

Just a few thoughts from the way-back bin. :)

Take care.
Chris
 
The thing is most guys doing pro audio with the fancy gear started out on fairly crappy equipment. Heck, just a few years ago I was using some borderline equipment and getting decent results.

However, having used everything from a Mackie CR mixer and a Fostex 16 bit HD recorder to a full blown ProTools rig with Focusrite ISA preamps the difference in gear is actually less than most novices would believe. Literally it is measured in a scant 5-10% (unless you are using really bottom of the barrel gear like Behringer, or stuff in bad spec).

The important thing is SKILL.

I guarantee that if I did recordings with the consumer grade gear I had a number of years ago now they'd be near the level of quality that I can achieve now.

Skill is what counts. High end gear, for the most part, just makes a client feel more at ease with your abilities.
 
Literally it is measured in a scant 5-10% (unless you are using really bottom of the barrel gear like Behringer, or stuff in bad spec).
Click to expand...

ha! yeah... but every tiny little improvement is going to cost more. theres a big difference between Behinger mics (£50ish) and Studio Projects (£70-£150ish), but the price difference is relatively small... compare that to a Neumann... i just found one going for £7000!! but i'd like to bet there isn't a full x70 in the quality. every teeny tiny little step up costs that much more than the last 'teeny tiny step'.

:D

Andy
 
Yup- the law of diminishing returns. You'll spend 20% of your resources on 80% of your quality... then heave the remaining 80% at the last 20.

Most home recording enthusiasts couldn't get even 4x sound quality out of the Neumann- unless its measured in 4x loudness of the fridge buzz leaking onto the track along with the neighbors dog. There are too many other things affecting the quality of But that's how my collection of schtuff has grown over the years: the new mic highlights the old preamp's shortcomings, the new preamp then shows up the old mixing board, the new board's EQ's eventually don't cut the mustard, then the new EQ's sound so much clearer than the compressor I've been using... its not just about the stuff, but about learning to HEAR what's going on with the stuff.

Cloneboy, you're right on about the high end gear making the client more comfortable. Kinda silly, but its true. I'll flash the BLUE Baby Bottle (handling it very carefully, like its a sacred object) and the clients' eyes get wide with awe and wonder. When it doesn't work for their voice, I'll get out the Studio Projects C1 and handle it the same way, and the clients' eyes get wide with wonder...

Oh- another cheap trick: mic placement is the original semi-parametric EQ- especially when close micing something. The trick is you need to know what you want the track to sound like before you record it. Its *well* worth spending the time to experiment with mic placement if you don't have a parametric EQ. Non-parametrics, like those on most budget gear, means you have to cut/boost the same frequencies on all your tracks- instant mud. Need a mid-range boost on the guitar? Move the mic until it sounds more midrangey. Kick sounding too clickly and not enough thumpy? Move the mic away from the beater: it might not have the low end frequency response of a *real* kick mic, but you can still get it to sound its best no matter what it is.

And its the process of figuring out what a given piece of low end gear's best is that make for a good engineer.
 
Thanks for the replys, so far they have made lots of sense. I started this thread with the idea of helping some novice people out, like the high school kid who dosen't have much to invest or the musician who just wants to put his (her) ideas down on recordings or music students or whatever. The ideas like ways to eliminate noise and bouncing from one machine to another are the sorts of things I am hoping for. Ways to get the most out of whatever gear we have on hand can boost a newbie's confidence and encourage those of us who have been dabbeling with this for a while. Keep the ideas comming, even the guy with just a PC and a cheapo mic wants to make the best recording possible.
 
For me, one of the best things you can do is CALIBRATE Your METERS!
Make sure that 0db on this meter, is 0db on all of the other meters. That way your gear is all reading the same.

It will make life much easier. :)

Kick Drum Tunnel.
I can't say it enough times.

You don't even really need a Kick drum mic if you use a Tunnel. And yes, you CAN get a very usable kick drum track out of a general vocal mic.
Tuning, Placement, and EQ all play a role in it.



Tim
 
Dani Pace said:
For example, I often use a Yamaha MT120 4 track recorder instead of a mixer/preamp. It does the same thing, although limited to 4 chanels in and 2 chanels out, still it works quite well, especially since I rarely need to add more than one track at a time. Another thing I have done is to use cheap tinny mics for cymbals and occasionaly for back up vocals, cheap mics wont take much abuse and often have weak cables but in some cases the will work just fine.
OK I tossed out the first couple of ideas, now lets hear from the rest of you and any of your tips for cutting cost while still getting a decent recording.
Click to expand...


Let's see ... things that make for better recordings, and don't cost a whole lot.

* Tuning. Guitars, drums, bass, everyting.
* Warming up. Works wonders.
* Practice
* Changing strings and drum heads.
* Playing technique; playing fluidly and deliberate, but never forced or over-rambunctious.
* Finding sweetspots; mic positioning.
* Knowlege of gain-staging.
* Learning how to "finesse" your instrument, amplifiers, etc. to get a good sound out of them for recording purposes.

And most importantly ... understanding your limitations and work with them. If your gear sucks, then don't expect your stuff to sound great, and don't get disapointed if/when it doesn't. Just blame the gear. :D But if, in fact, you do manage to get lucky and make something acceptable ... take all the credit for yourself; "It was all me. Just look at the crappy gear I had to work with. I'm a genius."

How to actually get good gear on the cheap:

* Learn electronics ... or become really good friends with someone who does. Do that, and you can buy broken stuff for next to nothing, and just have your buddy fix it for you ... in exchange for recording time, free beer, or letting him sleep with your sister/wife/daughter.

You can also buy cheap stuff and mod it in to something acceptable or even good.

* Scan Ebay during "off-hours." i.e. when most people are working or sleeping. Be wary of time zones, etc.

Also, be on the constant lookout for garage/estate sales, pawn shops, etc.

* Drug Addicts are a great source for cheap gear. I can't tell you how many stories I've heard about guys getting a hold of really, really nice stuff that way. I just worked with a band the other day who's guitar player had a Vintage 60's Richenbacher he scored for like $400 "because the guy needed drug money."

*Forgotten gear.Always be on the lookout for discontinued models, ugly pieces of gear, or stuff that just wasn't marketed very well. Some of the older Symetrix units come to mind. Most of that has a hard time selling, I believe, just because it looks dingy in an ebay picture. But most all of them are still functioning and sounding great. The dbx Project I lines of rack gear were actually designed by Bob Orban. Professional gear, basically, that was marketed as "prosumer" at a time when prosumer wasn't a large enough market to sell anything to. Good gear / bad marketing. Snag the stuff up for the 50 bucks it might cost if you see it somewhere.

And there are tons of other examples I could point out. Ashly and JBL compressors, Altec tube gear, AMR/Peavey ... keep searching the boards, and you'll find out what the hidden gems are so you can be on the lookout for them.
 
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I like the minimalist/budget concept. From these basic constraints, a lot of creativity and resourcefulness (spelling I know) can brew up some excellent solutions. Making due with what you've got or what you know. Super!

Take for instance, low power tube PA's for guitar players living in appartments this stuff started as hobby work...there's a growing industry around it now. Again, how about the ham radio scene a bit out dated but when shit hits the fan and cellphones won't cut it...it works and comes from the build it on a budget and make it work concepts,...the whole DIY thing...love it, from building your own amps, to studio furniture, racks, speaker cabs etc,...and why would you do it? Get better or same quality for cheaper. What's not to like about that?

I'm not saying that DIY is always the way to go but I would like to see a forum strictly dedicated to the concept of low budget.
 
Great Skills So/So Equipment = Good-Great Recording
Great Skilles and Great Gear = Great Recording
Bad Skills and Any Gear = Crappy Recording
 
andydeedpoll said:
ha! yeah... but every tiny little improvement is going to cost more. theres a big difference between Behinger mics (£50ish) and Studio Projects (£70-£150ish), but the price difference is relatively small... compare that to a Neumann... i just found one going for £7000!! but i'd like to bet there isn't a full x70 in the quality. every teeny tiny little step up costs that much more than the last 'teeny tiny step'./QUOTE] Very true, but it's often that teeny step or two that makes the difference between a Nashville CD sound and a Garage CD-R sound.

Cloneboy and boomtap are absolutely correct. An engineer with quality experience can make a more interesting recording with two tin cans and a string than someone just starting out could do with a Studer and a closet full of Neumanns. The gear is only tools, the engineer is the craftsman.

However, the key in this thread (and in fact hidden begind most threads) is the mercurical definition of "decent sounding stuff" (as Dani put it in his original post.) Not only does everybody's opinion diffeer as to where that bar should be placed, but everybody's own opinion varies depending upon the context it which it's used and what it's compared to.

Regardless of what is often said in these varying forums, if done carefully and properly, many of us could actually record some "decent sounding stuff" with two 57s, a quality stereo cassete deck and a pair of hedphones. A few could even make a better recording with that gear than many could with a couple of LDCs, a couple of Onyx pres and a HDR.

The question, however, is; when does "decent sounding" not sound very decent? By thought - as well as by evidence of posts to this board - as soon as that "decent sounding" recording is forced to compete with other recordings. In situations like MP3 playlists, mix CDs, comparitive play on real-world systems like boom boxes and car stereos, etc., all of a sudden, "decent sounding" sounds like mud instead.

It's in those comparitive situations where the diminishing returns of the exponentially expensive gear becomes something more than "teeny". Even T-Bone Burnett cannot make an MXL sounds like a Neumann or make a Yamaha MG sound like an AMS Neve.

Does this mean that the low budget stuff is not any good? of course not! Does it mean that I am a gear snob? Hell no (my gear is nothing to write home about either, ya know. ;) )

Does it mean that when someone is using a bargain rig and they come on the forum and want to know why their CD does not sound as good as the one from their favorite band, and someone else replies it's because your equipment isn't expensive enough that the answerer is being a snob? NO.

Get over it! Those of us with limited budgets (including myself) have to set our expectations accordingly. We have to learn to hear when a lack in sound is due to lack in technique and when it's due to a lack in gear.

When it's a lack in technique, we work on our technique and don't blame it on the gear. "If I only had a Neumann" is no answer to someone who doesn't know mic technique well enough.

But equally; when its a lack in gear we should undertsand that and don't call someone a snob for pointing that out. "My vocals just don't sound like Joss Stone" is not a valid post complaint when you're using a thousand dollars worth of gear.

G.
Click to expand...
 
here's a really cheap thing i came up with not long ago for anyone who has a spindle of 30 or more blank cds. like this

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2233561

-take the case off of the cd holder (the clear plastic part), and just store the cds in that upside down.
-now take the bottom of the cd holder (the black part with the pole) and you have a desktop microphone stand, just place a mic holder like one that comes free with a shure mic on top of it.
 
check out some tunes I recorded on my tascam 244 and some very crappy mics. these tunes are the first from a lot of 244 sessions I did with some friends (i did not play on the tracks). We eventually made an entire album, wich sounds a lot better than the tracks on this site. All done on my tascam, cheap mics and a little bit of mastering.

www.woodyandpaul.com

that's as low-budget as it gets I guess
 
in my opinion, this would be an excellent idea. i'm tired of blue bear trying to give me advice that is absolutely meaningless to me, due to the fact that i don't have the expierence and collection of gear that he does, and it's qute agrivating when he gives me negative rep all the fucking time for asking for some useable advice.
 
Well, Blue is Blue...no bash intended. Loads of respect to him.

I think Blue is coming from the side Ethan was talking about where he has the skills and the facility to put the high end gear to good use. People like us (well, me anyways) haven't achieved as of yet.

When I approach the pros, I try to stay away from the topic of gear and try to pull more of the technique out of them. And that, is what this thread is all about isn't it.

It would be cool to get some of the pro types to hang here and offer up just the technique stuff without the gear lectures.

While we're on the subject, just wanted to say kudos to Tim Brown...I've been screwing around here in the studio all day. Tried out his kick drum tunnel idea and he's right...way cool. Basically what I did was take a few left over sheets of 703 and make like a teepee tunnel out in front of the kick. I'm working on a cleaner solution maybe a hinged plywood folding thing with the 703 and some fabric.

I've always thought of my drum tracks as being rather good. Usually with three mics...maybe four. But with the tunnel, I'm really liking 4 on the set and one out in the room. 2 OH's, 1 Snare, 1 kick deep inside the tunnel and one out front. The tunnel really gets more isolation or separation for the kick so I can really tweak the kick sound the way I like it.
 
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