No hate music policy?

[Fletcher]

I guess I'd just like to know if any of you would think I was being out of line if I called my client back, and respectfully declined the referal?

Out of line? Probably not... it's your right to do any work you feel you want, and not do any work you want. If you feel that by recording this music you will be part of the problem of the promotion of violence and want to decline... you should feel free to do so.

Personally, I'd think you're being a schmuck if you turn down the work, but it's your studio, and your potential earnings. I've done more than a couple "Christian" records, personally, I find them lyrically about as tasteful as a poke in the eye with a blunt stick... but a gig's a gig.

With that said, if it were my gig, there would be some rulz about it...

1) "No provision of samples", my facility would not "provide samples"... we're in the business of 'recording'... we sell time to record things... by providing samples, you're giving away the store.

If the client has their own samples, with proof of "clearance" for those samples [there was a rather famous suit in the late 80's involving Steve Ett where Steve (the engineer) was sued along with the artist for the use of samples that weren't properly licenced], then they can employ those samples... but provision of samples? Nuh-uh.

FWIW, I have done recordings that employed "gun samples"... even made the call to a guy to bring his 12ga. Remington shotgun to the session to play the thing... we recorded the "sample" and flew it in as was appropriate to the music.

For me... the same goes with 'drum samples'. Yes, I have a collection of them... no, I don't give them out for free. They took time, effort, and energy to attain... they belong to me, and I'm not all that altruistic in giving shit away.

1A) Prior to the weapon entering the studio, they had to show me the fucking thing was unloaded, and that no ammunition was present in the building at the time... and that the guy that had the weapon was properly licenced for the weapon [in the case of the shotgun all that was required by local statute was an "FID" card].

2) A "posse tax" [got this idea from Unique Recording in NYC].

For each and every person that shows up to the session that is not directly involved with the session [not a performer, not the 'producer of record', etc.]... a $50 a head additional charge was enforced prior to comencement of the session.

This greatly reduces the size of the "posse" attending the recording event. At many facilities, this extends way beyond 'rap' / 'hip-hop' events... there is one session I recently attended ["EMO" band] where I wasn't the engineer nor the producer but hired to hand around and kinda "consult" [yeah, I know it sounds like a dumb idea... but a gig's a gig in my world]. It cost the budget an additional $75/day to the studio for me to be there.

3) General policy for all sessions... microphone inventory at the beginning and conclusion of all sessions.

The most common problem with having people in your studio you don't know really well is loss of microphones... and it's far less expensive to pony up the $50- in "posse tax" than to buy pretty much any microphone you have in inventory... in other words, it's not out of the realm of possibility for the "client" to pony up the $50- when the intention of having the 'posse member' in attendance is for the 'posse member' to lift a mic or two.

If you inventory all of your mics at the beginning and end of each session, you'll sustain fewer losses. Do the "out inventory" with the client in attendance.

4) Payment in full prior to the start of the session, materials and ancillary charges to be paid immediately upon the conclusion of the days events.

Best of luck with it... no matter what you decide.

 

[dafduc]

Maybe that guy from Run DMC was recording the same sort of thing when he went down....

Whoa!!!!

That was absolutely not what Run-DMC was about. They were about community, brotherhood, and positivity. That's why the shooting seemed so senseless - They were NOT part of the gangsta scene.

I'm guessing rap / hip-hop isn't your preferred listening genre (but maybe there'll be bel canto rappers soon? [g]), but it's important not to paint them all with the same brush. Or, maybe, refrain from comment when you're not sure.

Daf (can't we all just get along?)

 

[dafduc]

Chess - it's your place, you have the right to say what goes and what doesn't go.

Right now, Graytail is a "private studio". It's specifically listed that way so that I'm under no obligation or pressure to record anybody except people I invite. Maybe a moot point, since it wouldn't impress anyone anyhow, but it was specifically with an eye to the future that I did that. I WILL retain control over what goes on, even when we get the separate room, and eventually, the separate building.

Daf

 

[Jagular]

I understand how you can detest rappers that only babble about guns. It's kind of funny, I had a guy ask me the same question about having a sample of a gun being cocked a while ago. You have the right to turn away any business that you don't want. I just start to worry when you guys talk about turning people away because of their lyrics.

I have a band on the side that writes songs with the main goal of being silly and offensive. We'd never have a hope in hell of getting into a studio if everyone started turning away bands with lyrics that they found questionable.

If you pass it up, someone else will surely be there to record his garbage. Might as well make some money. Plus, people should be allowed to do, say, and listen to what they want, even if you don't like it. That's what freedom is.

ethics > $

(or should be anyway)

 

[Jagular]

Hey Chess...It's your studio. If you have a bad feeling about doing stuff like this, then don't do it. I admire your willingness to pass by a buck for some semblance of ethics.

Good luck on your decision

 

[chessrock]

Hey fellas. Thanks for the advice, and for helping to present some different points of view on this.

I hope you know, it's not like I'm turning my back on a ton of money here or anything. Keep in mind these are the kind of guys who come in here with the beats and music parts already recorded to CD, usually done very badly with Fruity Loops.

They're generally in-and-out in 2 hours . . . they pay in cash, and the tracking / mixing effort on my part is minimal. I look at it basically as quick, easy pocket cash during slow times, or when I have an extra couple hours available during the week.

I have neither the skills nor desire to develop a reputation for my work with hip-hop artists . . . unless they're rare talents, and unfortunately, most of the rare talents I get here are jazz, adult contemp. or rock. I have yet to work with a hip-hopper who brings anything fresh to the table, or who has any outstanding skills with either their voice, songwriting, or their fruity loops programming prowess.

If someone like that does come along, I may be forced to re-think my policy.


Thanks again for your help. It's an interesting topic, to say the least, isn't it?

 

[Chris Tondreau]

Whoa!!!!

That was absolutely not what Run-DMC was about.

Sorry, I guess I was misunderstood. I realize that Run DMC was about very positive attitudes, and represented themselves rather well in that regard, I think. Even though it is not my "usual" kind of listening music, I do have SOME knowledge of it.

What I was suggesting was that perhaps he was recording a guy and figured "well, they're just words" and let his positivity shine through, when cynicism could have been more timely. Not realizing the person he was recording really was into the whole gangsta scene, the guy from DMC gave him a little more credit than he deserved, and payed for it in the end.

I don't know who he was recording, so I'm merely posing it if not as a possibility, then as an example of what MIGHT happen.

Chris

 

[crosstudio]

Chris Tondreau: i understood exactly what you meant regarding run-dmc.

Fletcher: i do mostly 'urban' music for which the posse effect is rediculous. the posse tax is a great idea.

chessrock: i make my own gun cocking samples for my clients, and i've heard my fair share of weak lyricists who want to talk guns-n-ho's even though they are from the subhurbs.

i see it like this:
if a jewish writer/director in LA can make movies about life in the ghetto and get paid, then black subhurbanites can rap about it and get paid. in both of these instances, you will hear a lack of depth and honesty that betrays them... sort'a like Shania Twain singing country music when she's Canadian.

 

[Fletcher]

they pay in cash

I reckon it depends on your 'tax bracket'... but in my world, cash is worth a third more than money!!

 

[Slackmaster2K]

I'm going to disagree with Fletcher just because I've always wanted to:

I think that if you honestly feel that the content of the lyrics that you'll be recording is to inspire hatred, then you may have a moral obligation to deny them. I hardly doubt that this would be an issue if a bunch of skinheads came into your studio!

I don't think it's proper to compare hate-filled & violent lyrics to christian lyrics either. I would have a hard time not saying "oh for christ's fucking sake" every ten minutes if I had to record religious content, but only those on the far extreme are honestly offensive to me to the point where I couldn't work with them because of their views (e.g. those who inspire hatred and intolerance of others).

Of course you'll probably just want to make an excuse instead of telling them the real reason you can't record them. And of course you have to take into consideration that I'm just a homerec'er with a day job!

Now if it's just because you don't care for rap...then maybe you should just grin & bear it

Slackmaster 2000

 

[DigitMus]

I don't want to put words in Fletcher's mouth (not that anybody COULD), but how do you know what his moral code is, let alone what he considers a "moral obligation"? I tend to assume that the Founding Fathers put the freedom of religion clause in to prevent a dictatorship on moral grounds. Sadly, in this country people have a proclivity for considering anyone who doesn't share their own particular religious/moral perspective as either immoral, or amoral, and therefor to be condemned or dismissed. What I find ironic is the frequent circumstance that someone (i.e. a public figure) will heartily condemn an interpersonal behavior on moral grounds, while applauding the same behavior in a business setting. Hmmm...have I dragged this far enough from the topic at hand? I think so. That's what I get for posting after my double martini - which I don't find morally reprehensible - your moral code may vary.


Scott

 

[Slackmaster2K]

I *don't*.

Moral obligations are up to the individual! I never implied that it was an obligation to all humanity!!! :rollseyes:

Slackmaster 2000

 

[Fletcher]

Slackmaster2K, sorry if this is going to bum you out... but you weren't really disagreeing with me. My statement was merely "take the money"... which is what I do on 'Christian' projects, and 'Gangsta rap' projects alike... I take the money and ignore whatever the hell it is they're saying.

NWA hit home... the "Easy E wannabe's" couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. "Kansas" was a neat novelty act in the 70's... that's as close as I ever want to get to listening to 'god' lyrics if possible.

The fact of the matter is that you can indeed engineer a record without ever listening to the words. Very often the lyrics, while printed out on a sheet so I can punch words, lines, etc. are nothing more than miscellaneous words on a page to me.

When mixing, the vocals are just another instrument that needs to fit into the balance. If the producer wants a specific effect on a specific word within the mix... it's no more of a "lyric" to me than any other 'event' that may occur on beat 4 of bar 8 of the 2nd verse... if you catch my drift.

Moral obligation? The only "moral obligation" anyone has is to their own morals and their family. I'm not morally obligated, nor is anyone morally obligated to take nor turn down any work. If they're cool with turning it down, that's their right and their decision. If they take the gig it's their right and their decision.

Lord knows (pun half intended) I've taken some gigs that half made me want to puke, but hey, it's my job and if they're willing to give me money to turn knobs and push buttons... bro, I'm fucking there. Frankly, I don't think that any of the recordings I've worked on that I found intensely offensive caused a "drive by" shooting, nor a conversion to hard core 'born again' status... but if they did, so be it.

I guess it's just me... but I've always felt that my moral obligation started and ended with making sure there was food on the table and shoes on the kidz feet... that their homework was done and that they read before bedtime.

What other people do with their kids/lives is out of my immediate control, so it's not something I'm going to invest a whole lot of thought into... I dunno, maybe I should, but it doesn't seem like there are enough hours in the day to make sure everyone else does the "right" thing. One thing I do know is that I am certainly not qualified in any manner, shape, nor form to be my brother's keeper.

As always... YMMV.

 

[Fletcher]

Moral obligations are up to the individual! I never implied that it was an obligation to all humanity!!!

... of course you post this while I'm in the middle of the diatribe from hell... damn don't I feel like a complete douche bag right around now....

 

[dafduc]

i see it like this:
if a jewish writer/director in LA can make movies about life in the ghetto and get paid, then black subhurbanites can rap about it and get paid.

Wait. Are we talking about the old jewish ghettoes here? Or the modern, um, non-jewish ones?

Either way, what you're saying makes sense, just a different sense depending on which ghetto you mean...

Daf

 

[Slackmaster2K]

Moral obligation? The only "moral obligation" anyone has is to their own morals and their family. I'm not morally obligated, nor is anyone morally obligated to take nor turn down any work. If they're cool with turning it down, that's their right and their decision. If they take the gig it's their right and their decision.

Which is what I meant actually. I've always had a very utilitarian outlook and sometimes I guess I forget to qualify what I mean.

The only moral obligation you have is to yourself (as you said). If Chessrock takes a gig that he finds morally improper then it could be damaging to his self-worth...and while that may sound lame to tougher guys, I've found that it's very difficult to recover once you start heading down that road. That's all I meant. I wouldn't record Nazis just to put food on the table...I'd sooner starve.

Where each individual draws those lines is a very personal choice. Some things are worth the money, others aren't. The first sign that something is wrong for you, though, is that feeling of unease that I think he has expressed in his posts.

I guess this has little to do with audio really...it can apply to anybody in any field.

And I suppose I'm not in disagreement with you, I just misunderstood. I've been lurking at prorec for a while now, and it has always been my dream to argue with you on my turf.

Slackmaster 2000

 

[Kramer]

"The only moral obligation you have is to yourself (as you said). If Chessrock takes a gig that he finds morally improper then it could be damaging to his self-worth...and while that may sound lame to tougher guys, I've found that it's very difficult to recover once you start heading down that road. "

"Where each individual draws those lines is a very personal choice. Some things are worth the money, others aren't. The first sign that something is wrong for you, though, is that feeling of unease that I think he has expressed in his posts."

There ya go.....thats what it all boils down to.Something that scratches you the wrong way on the inside cant be good for the soul.(mind etc..)

 

[crosstudio]

dafduc:

i'm referring to the modern non-jewish ghettos of course, since the modern jewish writers have never experienced life in the jewish-american ghettos of the 40s, 50s and 60s. just like my younger brothers have never experienced life in the african-american ghettos but still like to listen to thug music.

i have to say though that i am a bit of a hypocrit, because while i have made my own gun cocking and firing samples in anticipation of client needs, i do discriminate when it comes to booking studio time. i prefer fake thugs over real ones because contrary to what you hear in rap music, fake thugs have more expendable income.

 

[chessrock]

I'm going to disagree with Fletcher just because I've always wanted to:

And I'm sure Fletcher is cool with that . . . which makes him a step above most other gear pimps who have frequented this board . . . and thus, why it's so cool to have him on board, finally (What the hell took you so long ? ? ?).

I don't think it's proper to compare hate-filled & violent lyrics to christian lyrics either.

Exactly.

However, if I were to have a bunch of Christians all of a sudden come in here and do songs like:

"All you other non-Christians suck. I'm 'gonna' pump you non-christians full of holes, just like Biggie or 2-Pack in the passenger side . . . "


. . . then I might have some problems with them. But to this date, the Christians have been a good deal more positive and much less violoent in their nature.

Cash or no cash.

Of course you'll probably just want to make an excuse instead of telling them the real reason you can't record them.

Do I need another reason? ? ?

Now if it's just because you don't care for rap...then maybe you should just grin & bear it

I honestly wish it were that simple.

I wish I could just say that I, chessrock, don't care for rap.

But I know in my heart it's just not true. I love early 2 Live Crew. I was weaned on that in college. I love Run DM-C. That's another band I grew up with. And the Beastie Boys rule . . . and I'm not just saying that because they're white. They're white and they're good.

I also love rock&roll. But I don't care how good you are or how hard you rock.

Take your violence-filled, gun-toting hate lyrics elsewhere. It's nothing but a bunch of crap. You're bringing the world down. You're bringing pop music down. You're bringing your race down. And you're spitting in the face of Martin Luther King, Parks, and anyone else who's ever fought hard or given their lives in order to further the cause of your race and the advancement of your people.

Think about it.

Guns suck.

People who glamorize them suck. Killing sucks. Quit rapping about it.


Most sincerely yours,


Chessrock

 

[Fletcher]

...so, I'm wondering... where do two of my favorite songs from like 1986(ish) fit into this?

Lightning Strikes

the boys and dukes are ready to rumble
the word on the street some heads are gonna tumble
blades gonna flash when the street gangs clash
in the avenue tonight
when the lightning strikes

zip gun John his finger is itchin'
oh the lids gonna blow up in hell's kitchen
it's an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth
they're so ruthless when they fight
when the lightning strikes

there's a free-for-all in the parking lot
over who will rule the streets
and the night explodes when the cops bring on the heat
and the chains they crash like thunder
while the weak ones all retreat
gotta draw first blood or they'll read your funeral rights
when the lightning strikes

it's dog eat dog when ya meet your rival
in the combat zone it's your means of survival
gonna get last licks on a suicide blitz
on a cloak and dagger night
when the lightning strikes

there's a free-for-all in the parking lot
over who will rule the streets
and the night explodes when the cops bring on the heat
and the chains they crash like thunder
while the weak ones all retreat
gotta draw first blood or they'll read your funeral rights

ooh ooh ooh ooh when the lightning strikes
when the lightning strikes
when the lightning strikes
can't you hear the thunder
when the lightning strikes
can't you hear the thunder
when the lightning strikes
can't ya, can't ya, can't ya hear the thunder

----vs.----

"Straight Outta Compton"

You are now about to witness the strength of street knowledge

Verse One: Ice Cube

Straight outta Compton crazy motherfucker named Ice Cube
From the gang called Niggaz With Attitudes
When I'm called off I got a sawed off
Squeeze the trigger and bodies are hauled off
You too boy if ya fuck with me
The police are gonna hafta come and get me
Off yo ass that's how I'm goin out
For the punk motherfuckers that's showin out
Niggaz start to mumble, they wanna rumble
Mix em and cook em in a pot like gumbo
Goin off on a motherfucker like that
with a gat that's pointed at yo ass
So give it up smooth
Ain't no tellin when I'm down for a jack move
Here's a murder rap to keep yo dancin
with a crime record like Charles Manson
AK-47 is the tool
Don't make me act the motherfuckin fool
Me you can go toe to toe, no maybe
I'm knockin niggaz out tha box, daily
yo weekly, monthly and yearly
until them dumb motherfuckers see clearly
that I'm down with the capital C-P-T
Boy you can't fuck with me
So when I'm in your neighborhood, you better duck
Coz Ice Cube is crazy as fuck
As I leave, believe I'm stompin
but when I come back, boy, I'm comin straight outta Compton

Chorus:

[City of Compton, City of Compton]

[Eazy E] Yo Ren
[MC Ren] Whassup?
[Eazy E] Tell em where you from!

Verse Two: MC Ren

Straight outta Compton, another crazy ass nigga
More punks I smoke, yo, my rep gets bigger
I'm a bad motherfucker and you know this
But the pussy ass niggaz don't show this
But I don't give a fuck, I'ma make my snaps
If not from the records, from jackin the crops
Just like burglary, the definition is 'jackin'
And when illegally armed it's called 'packin'
Shoot a motherfucker in a minute
I find a good piece o' pussy, I go up in it
So if you're at a show in the front row
I'm a call you a bitch or dirty-ass ho
You'll probably get mad like a bitch is supposed to
But that shows me, slut, you're composed to
a crazy muthafucker from tha street
Attitude legit cause I'm tearin up shit
MC Ren controls the automatic
For any dumb muthafucker that starts static
Not the right hand cause I'm the hand itself
every time I pull a AK off the shelf
The security is maximum and that's a law
R-E-N spells Ren but I'm raw
See, coz I'm the motherfuckin villain
The definition is clear, you're the witness of a killin
that's takin place without a clue
And once you're on the scope, your ass is through
Look, you might take it as a trip
but a nigga like Ren is on a gangsta tip
Straight outta Compton...

Chorus:

[City of Compton, City of Compton]

[Dr. Dre] Eazy is his name and the boy is comin...

Verse Three: Eazy-E

...straight outta Compton
is a brotha that'll smother yo' mother
and make ya sister think I love her
Dangerous motherfucker raises hell
And if I ever get caught I make bail
See, I don't give a fuck, that's the problem
I see a motherfuckin cop I don't dodge him
But I'm smart, lay low, creep a while
And when I see a punk pass, I smile
To me it's kinda funny, the attitude showin a nigga drivin
but don't know where the fuck he's going, just rollin
lookin for the one they call Eazy
But here's a flash, they never seize me
Ruthless! Never seen like a shadow in the dark
except when I unload, see I'll get over the hesitation
and hear the scream of the one who got the last penetration
Give a little gust of wind and I'm jettin
But leave a memory no one'll be forgettin
So what about the bitch who got shot? Fuck her!
You think I give a damn about a bitch? I ain't a sucker!
This is the autobiography of the E, and if you ever fuck with me
You'll get taken by a stupid dope brotha who will smother
word to the motherfucker, straight outta Compton

Given the opportunity... would you have passed on doing either?