Newbie analog frustration

D

desmond22

New member
Hi all.
Im new to this type of recording(with tape)
Ive got a TSR8 in pretty good nick which i had serviced after i bought it and its all good supposedly. The only thing is it seems to leave shards of tape behind after playing which i cant imagine to be good.
Mixer is Tascam m216 which sweetbeats has been helping me get my head around.
Up and running a few days. Ive got ATR magnetics tape. First song was just acoustic. First recording sounded awesome but the arrangement wasnt right so im recording again.
Im having so much trouble and its taking so long to do a guitar track. Im using the dolby. During recording it sounds fine, but on playback it sounds overly compressed and quiet, waving in and out sonically.
The mixer was cheap and might need repair, but its most likely operator error.
there is also alot of spill onto neighbouring tracks. when i solo track one, i can here track 2 quite clearly.
im scouring the forum for info, but any advice, ideas are welcomed. Ive gone to Analog from pro tools and i find the sound unreal, plus loving not using computer for music. Its sort of similar when i started on the DAW. loads of tech hiccups. im at my most keen now to record, write etc with gigs lined up and the chance to have some nice CDs ready for them, but its never simple is it!!
 
Man that does sound frustrating. It sounds like a few things going on. For having just been serviced?? :confused: Did you try recording without the dolby?
 
hi

I just recorded with the dolby off and the vox came out so quiet. this could be because i had the dolby on for the first 3 tracks and the option for dolby is one button for 1-4 and another for 5-8. however with the dolby off, the guitar track that was waving in and out has stopped doing that.
i think the recorder is ok. if anything it will be the mixer, or my lack of knowledge in using this mixer. Its a bit of a weird one.
 
desmond22 said:
The only thing is it seems to leave shards of tape behind after playing which i cant imagine to be good.
Click to expand...
No, that does not sound good to me either. What do you mean by shards? If it's shedding tape, you'll never get a good recording. Are the heads and guides really dirty when you clean them?
 
desmond22 said:
The only thing is it seems to leave shards of tape behind after playing which i cant imagine to be good.
Click to expand...

Using ATR tape, correct? Not my first choice but lets move on for now... Can you post a clear, up-close photo of the heads, tape lifters and guides? We're looking for deep wear grooves, which may be shredding the tape.

Im using the dolby. During recording it sounds fine, but on playback it sounds overly compressed and quiet, waving in and out sonically.
Click to expand...

You have dbx noise reduction (not dolby). It needs to be either ON (for recording / playback) or OFF, meaning that you can't record with it ON and then play it back with OFF, OK? Check if you had it correctly set.


there is also alot of spill onto neighbouring tracks. when i solo track one, i can here track 2 quite clearly.
Click to expand...

If you're really pushing the meters into the red, pinning them, then don't. Your noise reduction (if engaged) doesn't like that. Stay 0db at most, only peaks. If not using noise reduction, pushing the meters might indeed yield spill-over of signal to adjacent tracks. Also the tape that you're using is not suited to your machine, which may have problems erasing the signal, not to mention not being setup / or being able to be setup (electronically) for this ultra high operating level tape (+11).

BTW: what did this "service tech" do to this machine? Who was it and do you have a copy of what was done?
 
The TSR8 can't properly handle ATR tape.

Cjacek pretty much covered everything else.

dbx noise reduction is a great system, when used correctly and with the right kind of instruments. It doesn't like alot of wild transients, such as drums and/or bass guitar. Best thing to do is experiment with the dbx (just remember to keep it on/off for both play AND record) and various recording levels to see what works best.;)

I've got a TSR8 and I love that deck. Wonderful piece of machinery. Works very smoothly and the computer controlled aspects of it are amazing.:)
 
Change the tape, it's causing all the problems.

Clean the heads and guides and get rid of all the tape gunge that was left behind. The loss of volume was due to oxide build up on the heads from the tape shred. You also have realise that a tape machine is a mechanical piece of equipment, clean the heads and guides after every session.

Don't turn off the noise reduction, the machine is nowhere near as good without it.

Cheers
Alan.
 
Analog

I took machine to a tech to fix a sensor inside that keeps tension on tape. He also said heads were good and machine in general is mint. I did record and playback with d b x but i tested recording vocals with it off which then fixed the guitar sound. On play back vocals really quiet. Why is a t r tape not suited? Its the right thickness for this machine. Ive got some new r m g i coming too. Maybe thats better? I thought a t r was the good stuff. Was thinking of getting some quantegy as well. Whats that like? I cleaned the heads as did tech and ive only been using machine for a few days. Was looking promising after first recording. When i get home ill take some pix. Thank you all for your very helpful replies.
 
Ask the tech what tape it has been set up for. You need to use an equivalent tape to that, else you will have problems.

This is ESPECIALLY true if you use dbx, since dbx requires the overall frequency response to be flat, and it will double any response errors for you (ie. if it is down 6dB at 10kHz without dbx in use (both record and play) then it will be down 12dB with dbx (again in both record and play).

You could line it up for another tape formulation, but that is probably more advanced that you want to get just yet.

Another thing you should do is get an MRL test tape. The tones should all be steady when played back (never record over a test tape... sorry if that is stating the obvious). If the tones are not steady in both repro and sync playback, then you have a tape path or tension problem, and need to take it back to the tech. You will find that the higher frequency tones (eg. 8kHz and upwards) are harder to stay steady, but they should still not waver by more than half a dB if the heads are good.

Regards


David
 
heads close up

just cleaned them heads then tried to record again but getting the same result.
took some pix but file size is too big. will post later.
So do you really think its the tape?
Geez i paid alot for that tape. $140 from australian distributer...
 

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Hi,

When I said it's the tape I meant that reel of tape, it sounds like it's dropping oxide. If it drops oxide (shreds) it will clog up the heads as fast as you clean and also oxide will get between the tape and heads and reduce the signal.

I thought you said The only thing is it seems to leave shards of tape behind after playing which I cant imagine to be good. So I assumed it was shredding.

If this is a new reel of tape thats a worry, it could be a faulty batch or old stock. ATR should be a good tape according to the reviews.

Where is OZ are you?

Looking at the pics you may need to clean up a bit more, don't forget the guides also need cleaning and the heads still have some oxide on them.
Alan.
 
Last edited:
Brand new

Yes the tape is brand new. Started using on saturday. Prob spent only an hour total of use so far. I noticed almost straight away tiny shreds of tape under the heads on my table. Shortly after the sound started doing weird things. I need to research how tape is diff , width and thickness aside. I hope RMGI works ok. Ive dropped 300 just on tape! Inc take up reel. Still waiting on RMGI which i dont think is even in the country yet. Im in sydney. I didnt think there were too many options for new tape there days. All i found was ATR , QUANTEGY and RMGI. Sounds like i should leave that reel of tape out of machine. Any other options in oz for tape?
 
frustration in the nation

No i dont because i wiped it away. it was very fine and small, certainly not a big pile or anything but noticeble.
 
desmond22 said:
heads were good and machine in general is mint. I did record and playback with d b x but i tested recording vocals with it off which then fixed the guitar sound. On play back vocals really quiet.
Click to expand...

Yes, the heads, lifters etc... are in good shape. I think the problem here is the tape, as was pointed out earlier. It's shedding abnormally and probably prematurely clogging up the tracks. The shed you explain is something you might get after many hours, maybe days of recording and certainly not an hour's time. You are in the right to take it back for a refund. When you get this sorted out and get good tape, it'll be time to test further, like keeping the dbx engaged all the way through recording / playing back. Just keep it ON all the time and watch the levels.

Why is a t r tape not suited? Its the right thickness for this machine. Ive got some new r m g i coming too. Maybe thats better? I thought a t r was the good stuff. Was thinking of getting some quantegy as well. Whats that like? I cleaned the heads as did tech and ive only been using machine for a few days. Was looking promising after first recording. When i get home ill take some pix. Thank you all for your very helpful replies.
Click to expand...

ATR tape is not suited 'cause it wasn't made for this type of recorder but rather for the more boutique kind, which can handle the overall thickness and ultra headroom required. You don't have the electronics nor the robust mechanisms required for the ATR tape, on your machine. But that's not a dis against TASCAM but rather against ATR. It's only really meant for a small section of the market, running souped up machines.

There's base material thickness and overall thickness and the latter is overlooked. The ATR tape is significantly more thick (overall) than the tape that the TSR-8 was setup for originally, requires more bias and "pull" power to work right. It's physically harder on the so call "semi-pro" deck, in more ways than one and also you just don't have the electronics to handle the extra level. It's money wasted. With dbx engaged, you can actually use a +3 tape and still it'll sound great. Those are hard to find tho. The best choice is Quantegy 406 / 456 and BASF/EMTEC/RMGI SM911.

desmond22 said:
just cleaned them heads then tried to record again but getting the same result.
took some pix but file size is too big. will post later.
So do you really think its the tape?
Geez i paid alot for that tape. $140 from australian distributer...
Click to expand...

I'd bet it's indeed the tape. Get your money back. It shouldn't shed like that. See previous comments.

desmond22 said:
Yes the tape is brand new. Started using on saturday. Prob spent only an hour total of use so far. I noticed almost straight away tiny shreds of tape under the heads on my table. Shortly after the sound started doing weird things.
Click to expand...

Tape's your problem.


I hope RMGI works ok. Ive dropped 300 just on tape! Inc take up reel. Still waiting on RMGI which i dont think is even in the country yet. Im in sydney. I didnt think there were too many options for new tape there days. All i found was ATR , QUANTEGY and RMGI.
Click to expand...

RMGI 911 is fine. Where did you buy it? There's also new old stock BASF / EMTEC, Quantegy 406 / 456, all +3 / +6 level tapes. That's all you need to know. ;)

HINT: Use only cotton make up remover pads and at least 90% alcohol to clean the tape path. Don't use q-tips. Clean again more thoroughly until it's all mirror-like.
 
tape shedding.

Thanks so much for that reply. Im a bit confused.
I spoke with Mike Spitz from ATR last night and he was very helpful.
He told me that people are using his tape on TSR8's and that all i needed to do was transport a few times as the outer edges of the tape normally rub.
But after i got this email from him i was even more confused, because some of the things he mentioned i dont think apply to this deck. Problem is, anyone i contact about this knows more than me
Can you see the heads where the 2 groovers are on either side?
Is that a bad thing?
My counter roller(rubber roller on full tape side) is quite cracked. Ive neatly put duct tape on it and its now really smooth. Maybe this had something to do with shedding tape?
I dont wanna put any blame anywhere, cause more than likely its my fault.
I will try it again though, but its a bit freaky what you say about the ATR not being suited to the electronics of the machine.
im gonna be waiting ages for more tape. I got this machine over a month ago now, tape 2 weeks ago, then machine at a tech for a week. how much longer!!!

Ill try sell the tape on EBAY after cutting off where ive used which is the first 5 min.

thank you again!!!




Hi Steve,

Good to speak with you today. After taking a good look at the photos it appears this TSR 8 is not quite ready to provide good edge track performance. Specifically here are the issues I can see from the photos:

Track 8 of the record-play head appears to have a radius worn to the air slot and this will make that track unstable. The tape heads are not freshly lapped as we first discussed. This service will help restore stability too.

A new timer-tachometer roller is needed on the supply side of the machine. This rubber has worn out and is chipping off. This in itself is destructive to the tape. It is also the reason I think the tape is steering up and down in the tape path causing the edge tracks to slowly modulate the treble.

The capstan shaft is caked and must be thoroughly cleaned to prevent further tape damage. Also clean the rubber pinch roller.

The tape lifter arms should be turned to a new position on a polished side. The tape is riding on a worn flat spot and this too contributes to tape wear.

The same flat spots are noted on the larger diameter tape guides and I can see the oxide built up from the photos.

There will always be some small degree of small slivers and or oxide powder that appears the first few wind troughs.
of new tape.

I think it may be wise to contact Rodney Jacobson at Grevillea for his thoughts on the best person or place that can fully service your machine. I am not throwing stones at the last tech that did the audio set up your machine (you mentioned it sounds great) but I think a more thorough job of transport tuning and head re-lapping is in order to prevent edge damage to the tape.

Hope this helps and thank you for choosing ATR Magnetics Master Tape.

Best regards,

Mike Spitz
Tel: 717-718-8008
 
OK, first off, I mostly agree with Mike Spitz, with the exception relating to the condition of the heads, lifters, guides etc.... They're fine but require a thorough cleaning and it seems the capstan shaft, pinch roller and counter roller need cleaning and possibly replacement / re-rubbering (the rollers I mean). You absolutely need to clean the entire transport where the tape touches. It needs to be free of any oxide / residue. Another thing I disagree is with regard to that tape. It is (ATR) the wrong tape for the TSR-8 and most other TEAC / TASCAM recorders out-there. It's a waste of money because the recorders are not capable of using this tape formulation correctly, bias and level wise, not to mention the physical burden that this tape places on the capstan motor and heads, lifters, guides.. Whats-more is that your tech really did a terrible job at servicing this machine. That's why I always say, either take it to the people who built it, learn to service it yourself or don't bother with analogue. I would never take it to some off the shelf service guy.
 
Desmond, it took me about 2 hours to do a good cleaning on my TSR8 this previous Saturday morning. I actually just sat it on the kitchen table and started with the outermost portions of the tape path, the tension arms/rollers. I worked my way in and pulled the head cover off and proceeded to get a better angle of things (it's only two small allen bolts holding the "Tascam" cover on). I also turned the guides around a bit to get the flat spots away from the tape.

It sounds intimidating, but as long as you take your time and pay attention to what you are doing, it won't be any problem.;)

I'll have to post up a couple of pics soon.
 
You also need to get a new counter roller, when the other problems are sorted the counter roller is used to set dropin dropout pints and it needs to be accurate.

When I had my TSR8 I used Emtec 911 tape, I can't remember the new brand for this that has been released. Anyone know?

Back in my analog days I used to buy tape from these guys, but I don't think they have a branch in Sydney. They may not even have tape anymore.

Cheers

Alan.
 
tech stuff

Well the guy who fixed the sensor and supposedly did a service said he used to work for Tascam. Initially i took it because the sensors werent working and he fixed the problem quickly. I also asked him to go over it and give it a general service. He did clean the capstan roller. Ive scrubbed that thing with alcohol and can only get so much off. Im not even a week into it, but im pretty handy. Ive already taken the front off and found the broken sensor. I look after my shit and if this thing was mine from new, it would be like new still. Im gonna get Terry from Terrys rollers to re furb my cracked rubber roller see here:
And i will clean again. But ive got a long wait for more tape...
I phoned the ATR agent in australia today. Was the last straw. they were rude from the start and terrible to deal with. Grevillia Distribution.

ps. my name is Steve!!
 
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