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vagabond
New member
I'm trying to decide between these two mics for recording acoustic guitar. Which would you recommend?
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pundit
New member
The KM184 being a small diaphragm condenser is more suitable for acoustic. It will have a better transient response and less off axis coloration than the NTK. The NTK, being a LD condenser is really more suitable for vocals, and although it will work on acoustic, it would not be my first choice.
If the acoustic is the main reason for your mic choice then how about considering two mics? For the price of one new KM184 you may want to consider a some Rode NT5's or even some of the new Studio Projects C4's which come as a matched set with both cardioid and omni capsules. You may even be able to pick up a couple of s/h AKG 451's.
Don't get me wrong the KM184 is a great mic, but if you are recording solo acoustic guitar, then stereo recording is a MUST! So of course the $$ may affect your choice.
In a good room a nice acoustic can sound excellent recorded with a couple of decent quality SD omni mics.
BTW I think the poll is a bit irrelevant here as these two mics are totally different beasts in relation to their applications.
But I'm sure someone will disagree!
Anyway I voted!
If the acoustic is the main reason for your mic choice then how about considering two mics? For the price of one new KM184 you may want to consider a some Rode NT5's or even some of the new Studio Projects C4's which come as a matched set with both cardioid and omni capsules. You may even be able to pick up a couple of s/h AKG 451's.
Don't get me wrong the KM184 is a great mic, but if you are recording solo acoustic guitar, then stereo recording is a MUST! So of course the $$ may affect your choice.
In a good room a nice acoustic can sound excellent recorded with a couple of decent quality SD omni mics.
BTW I think the poll is a bit irrelevant here as these two mics are totally different beasts in relation to their applications.
But I'm sure someone will disagree!
Anyway I voted!
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Henri Devill
New member
I agree with Pundit
..Small D's..Also look into the Shure SM81's..Are the Studio Proj. smalls out now?
Don
..Small D's..Also look into the Shure SM81's..Are the Studio Proj. smalls out now?Don
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tdukex
Man of the Muse
I'd definitely be looking for a pair of SDs. I'm sure a pair of Rodes NT-5s would be nice. I would strongly consider a pair of AT 4041s for $400.
Track Rat
Just Your Average Sized Member
KM-184's are VERY nice on acoustic. Two is even nicer. Or a 184 and a figure 8 mic for M/S can be very cool too.
cominginsecond
Decentralized Media Mogul
In my experience, SDCs and stereo micing is better for acoustic if the track is going to be featured prominently. If it's a track that is intended to mix in with drums, electric guitar, bass and keyboards, I prefer an LDC in mono, and I don't own a better mic than the NTK for this job. It's a bright mic, but the top end is smooth. The low end is solid as well. In my opinion, it's perfect for mono "rock band" acoustic guitar.
I agree with everyone else, though, that if the guitar is solo or has minimal accompaniment, than go with two SDCs.
I agree with everyone else, though, that if the guitar is solo or has minimal accompaniment, than go with two SDCs.
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Wil Davis
New member
Jonkan said:
I thought the 184 to be a replacement for the 84 which is no longer made, and is hard to come by, even used - so I bought a couple of 184s and have been very pleased...
So, what's the difference?
- Wil
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Beezoboy
Home Recording Guru
Do you have any other mics? If you have another LD condenser to put on the body like an ADK A51s, or B1, or MXL2003 I would say get the km184.
The Km184 can be almost as versatile as an sm57. In a pair it makes nice overheads. You can put it right up on the cloth of an amp too. You can use them for percussion like tambourine and shakers. You can use it for acoustic guitar and get a very nice detailed sound. A lot of people have even used them for vocals.
The NTK I am not so familiar with but I know a lot of people like it FOR THE PRICE. I guess the NTK is fairly transparent as far as sound goes but smooth. I would have to say that you might not be able to use it for as many things. Also if you get the KM184 you have instant credibility to someone who comes to record because you use Neumann. It is sad but true.
The guy who has a studio full of outboard pre's and a big board with a few notable Neumann mics will probably be considered before a guy with a nice home studio with all Nuendo stuff and an arsenal of useful, but generally unknown chinese mics. What really sucks is that he could produce a pile of crap for them with all his expensive gear, and you are the one making the best CD's in town, and you'll still get overlooked.
I am not saying you have to have all that expensive stuff to make a CD. And I am not saying you can't be succesful with Nuendo and a bunch of chinese mics. I am just saying rather "longwindedly" that you might consider getting a tried and true classic mic. Its not that the NTK isn't a good mic, it is just that it is doesn't have the history and acceptance yet.
Of course if you are only making this stuff for you then....well....still get the Neumann.
Beezoboy
The Km184 can be almost as versatile as an sm57. In a pair it makes nice overheads. You can put it right up on the cloth of an amp too. You can use them for percussion like tambourine and shakers. You can use it for acoustic guitar and get a very nice detailed sound. A lot of people have even used them for vocals.
The NTK I am not so familiar with but I know a lot of people like it FOR THE PRICE. I guess the NTK is fairly transparent as far as sound goes but smooth. I would have to say that you might not be able to use it for as many things. Also if you get the KM184 you have instant credibility to someone who comes to record because you use Neumann. It is sad but true.
The guy who has a studio full of outboard pre's and a big board with a few notable Neumann mics will probably be considered before a guy with a nice home studio with all Nuendo stuff and an arsenal of useful, but generally unknown chinese mics. What really sucks is that he could produce a pile of crap for them with all his expensive gear, and you are the one making the best CD's in town, and you'll still get overlooked.
I am not saying you have to have all that expensive stuff to make a CD. And I am not saying you can't be succesful with Nuendo and a bunch of chinese mics. I am just saying rather "longwindedly" that you might consider getting a tried and true classic mic. Its not that the NTK isn't a good mic, it is just that it is doesn't have the history and acceptance yet.
Of course if you are only making this stuff for you then....well....still get the Neumann.
Beezoboy
C
chessrock
Banned
I think the NTK sounds cool on accoustic guitar. Maybe not for every situation, but damn, have you heard it?
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pundit
New member
Wil Davis said:
Yes the KM184 was the replacement for the KM84.
It's the old story... the trend these days is for brighter and brighter mics so that's what we are generally winding up with.
The 184's, while not totally disimiliar to an AKG 451 are IMO a bit classier sounding than the AKG. The 84's, on the other hand, won't sound as initially as impressive as a 184 BUT don't let that fool you... they are a very good microphone and IMO a classic.
A first you may think they are a bit on the dull side comparing them to most other hyped SD condensers but then you'll find what you are hearing is the guitar itself nothing more & nothing less. They really let the woody tones come through without the jangley thinness of many lesser mics. KM84's really grow on you after a while and if you need a bit more top end they can take upper end eq really nicely as they don't suffer from any nasties up top to begin with. They are very smooth with an almost classic cardioid pickup pattern. My KM84 (cardioid)works a treat with my Neumann U77 (set to figure 8) for MS recording.
The catch is you may wind up paying as much or even more for a pair of decent s/h KM84's than the 184's.
Even if you already own some 184's, the 84's are still a classic mic and something you'll never lose money on.
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vagabond
New member
Having limited funds to try these out myself, and limited knowledge to make a wise decision on my own, I appreciate all this useful feedback. Thanks, I’ve decided upon the Neumann’s.
Someone asked what equipment I have now. This is what I have at the moment:
{Audio Technica 4047/SV SD Mic
Focusrite Voicemaster Preamp
Turtle Beach Montegro Soundcard
400 Mhz PII system with 128MB RAM
7.4 GB Storage
Cool Edit Pro
AKG 240DF Headphones
Cheap Cables}
Having decided upon recording an album myself I was planning an upgrade now that I have the funds and a few years experience recording. I have a $3000 limit.
I play guitar and sing simultaneously and wish to record this way so my plan is to keep the AT and the Focusrite for vocals and get a pair of Neumann km184's for recording the guitar. The guitar has a beautiful warm tone and lots of sustain. My style of playing is finger picking with occasional strumming. I need a mic that can handle the shifts in pressure from gentle picking to strumming and can capture the beauty of the guitar’s tone. I had my mind set on the Neumann’s after having used them with a professional engineer a few months back. He only used one and that seemed to suffice… though if I can afford it after all considerations I will opt for two.
This was my plan in steps; I plan to buy everything new:
1)get a new system ($1000 or less, focusing on ram, processor, and storage) or upgrade current system ($500)
2)upgrade the soundcard to an RME or an M-Audio Delta 1010 ($600)
3)get the two Neumann’s ($1200)
4)Get a preamp for the guitar; my current choices are the Focusrite Red 8 Dual Mic preamp and the Grace Design Lunatek. ($1500)
5)buy good quality cables and 2 mic stands($200 give or take)
If you calculate this you can see I’ve gone a little over budget depending on the choices I make.
Should I get 1 Neumann and 1 channel preamp or 2 cheaper AT or Rode Mics with a dual channel preamp? My initial alternative would be 1 Neumann and a Grace 101 preamp.
I’ve left out a mixer since I plan to record at most 2 or 3 tracks simultaneously and mix with software. Is this a mistake?
I’ve also left out monitors. I plan to use my computer speakers and headphones. Or perhaps after recording take it to a professional for mastering.
I’ve also left out a compressor. Is this a mistake? I figured that buying a new soundcard would eliminate the clipping problem or at least make it easier to manage.
I currently record both guitar and vocals through the AT at 2 feet distance. So, even 1 Neumann would be a major step up in options and quality for me…allowing me 2 mics to work with. My main concern and current problem is clipping caused usually by the guitar…unless I try my Terry Reid impression.
After asking around and playing with the position I determined that this is most likely the fault of the soundcard, but I’m not certain.
I decided upon a 45 degree angle to the hole of the guitar and halfway between the guitar hole and my hole, my mouth. This is the angle that worked best.
/
_
/ = mic
_ = guitar and vocals
I tried the compression tool on the focusrite but the clipping continued as if no compression was being used. Therefore I am supposing that the soundcard is at fault. Anyway, the soundcard will be the first thing I replace.
So basically I would like some advice on which of these to choose:
1) 2 Neumann’s and 1 dual channel preamp
2) 1 Neumann, 1 channel preamp, 1 Mackie mini-mixer, 1 compressor
Or
3) 2 AT's or Rodes with 1 dual channel preamp, mixer, and compressor
Thanks again for your helpful advice.
Someone asked what equipment I have now. This is what I have at the moment:
{Audio Technica 4047/SV SD Mic
Focusrite Voicemaster Preamp
Turtle Beach Montegro Soundcard
400 Mhz PII system with 128MB RAM
7.4 GB Storage
Cool Edit Pro
AKG 240DF Headphones
Cheap Cables}
Having decided upon recording an album myself I was planning an upgrade now that I have the funds and a few years experience recording. I have a $3000 limit.
I play guitar and sing simultaneously and wish to record this way so my plan is to keep the AT and the Focusrite for vocals and get a pair of Neumann km184's for recording the guitar. The guitar has a beautiful warm tone and lots of sustain. My style of playing is finger picking with occasional strumming. I need a mic that can handle the shifts in pressure from gentle picking to strumming and can capture the beauty of the guitar’s tone. I had my mind set on the Neumann’s after having used them with a professional engineer a few months back. He only used one and that seemed to suffice… though if I can afford it after all considerations I will opt for two.
This was my plan in steps; I plan to buy everything new:
1)get a new system ($1000 or less, focusing on ram, processor, and storage) or upgrade current system ($500)
2)upgrade the soundcard to an RME or an M-Audio Delta 1010 ($600)
3)get the two Neumann’s ($1200)
4)Get a preamp for the guitar; my current choices are the Focusrite Red 8 Dual Mic preamp and the Grace Design Lunatek. ($1500)
5)buy good quality cables and 2 mic stands($200 give or take)
If you calculate this you can see I’ve gone a little over budget depending on the choices I make.
Should I get 1 Neumann and 1 channel preamp or 2 cheaper AT or Rode Mics with a dual channel preamp? My initial alternative would be 1 Neumann and a Grace 101 preamp.
I’ve left out a mixer since I plan to record at most 2 or 3 tracks simultaneously and mix with software. Is this a mistake?
I’ve also left out monitors. I plan to use my computer speakers and headphones. Or perhaps after recording take it to a professional for mastering.
I’ve also left out a compressor. Is this a mistake? I figured that buying a new soundcard would eliminate the clipping problem or at least make it easier to manage.
I currently record both guitar and vocals through the AT at 2 feet distance. So, even 1 Neumann would be a major step up in options and quality for me…allowing me 2 mics to work with. My main concern and current problem is clipping caused usually by the guitar…unless I try my Terry Reid impression.
After asking around and playing with the position I determined that this is most likely the fault of the soundcard, but I’m not certain.
I decided upon a 45 degree angle to the hole of the guitar and halfway between the guitar hole and my hole, my mouth
. This is the angle that worked best./
_
/ = mic
_ = guitar and vocals
I tried the compression tool on the focusrite but the clipping continued as if no compression was being used. Therefore I am supposing that the soundcard is at fault. Anyway, the soundcard will be the first thing I replace.
So basically I would like some advice on which of these to choose:
1) 2 Neumann’s and 1 dual channel preamp
2) 1 Neumann, 1 channel preamp, 1 Mackie mini-mixer, 1 compressor
Or
3) 2 AT's or Rodes with 1 dual channel preamp, mixer, and compressor
Thanks again for your helpful advice.
P
pundit
New member
vagabond said:
First up I would suggest that multi-micing in the way you described can lead to pretty major phase problems if you're not careful... so I'm going to suggest an alternative way of stereo recording which won't suffer from phase problems.
Have you heard of MS (mid-side) recording?
As for the gear... well I'm gonna throw a spanner in the works as well!!...
Mic SD - 1 x Neumann KM184 (cardioid) $600 or 1 x Rode NT5 (cardioid) or Studio Projects C4's (cardioid/omni)
Mic LD Multipattern - *1 x Studio Projects C3 (cardioid/omni/figure eight) $400
Preamp - FMR Audio RNP (2 channels) $500
Compressor - FMR Audio RNC $200
Mixer - Mackie 1202 (mainly for monitoring and signal routing)
NOTE: Patch the micpre into the insert return, NOT the line input!
The above gear with or without a few variations should be capable of producing good results without blowing your budget.
*As you wish to record both voice and guitar simultaneously, the C3 as the 'side' channel (set to figure of eight mode), along with the Neumann (center channel), will allow you to do MS (mid-side) recording which will sound more focused and natural than one vocal mic and a pair of SD's on the guitar.
Of course the other advantage of owning a LD mic is for straight vocal recording if you want to overdub your voice to existing tracks.
Remember with MS you won't be close micing either guitar or vocal but, in a good acoustic environment, MS mic placement will provide a great sense of both depth and space.
While you mentioned the Rode NTK, it is a cardioid only mic and as a result cannot be used as a side channel mic in MS recording.
The main 'central body' of the sound will be provided by the Neumann if that's what you are using as your center mic. The stereo 'space' will be as a result of the interaction between the figure of eight mic (SP's C3 or whatever) and the Neumann.
The stereo image created from MS can truly be excellent AND you can control the stereo width POST the recording in your PC.
The only catch is using a cardioid mic at a distance will result in some bass rolloff. However an omni mic can still be used in a MS configuration. Of course using omni's will suck more of the room sound into the recording which may, or may not, be a good thing.
The RNP pre has been getting some pretty positive reviews. Also the RNC compressor set to 'real nice' mode is VERY transparent and won't mush up either your guitar or vocals.
With this setup you shouldn't require a lot of eq'ing. It will be more a case of mic type and posistioning. The only eq difficulty I forsee may be some lo-mid boom in the acoustic which shouldn't be too bad if you aren't close micing it with a cardioid.
Bear in mind that if you eq the guitar you will also be eq'ing your vocal and vice versa as they are both part of that same signal.
If mainly only subtractive eq is required then you could probably do that with the careful use of a plugin eq. Don't use plugins if you need do to much boosting though... a good analog eq is definately better here.
As for any effects... some sparse use of a good reverb may suit but that's a whole different ballpark. However if the room acoustics are good then MS, done well, often needs nothing else!
If you are not in a great hurry I would check out the Studio Projects C4's as they should be out soon and include omni directional capsules. They may turn out to be pretty good and the price should be reasonable.
BTW... Type "ms recording" into Google and have a look!
Cheers
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
If I were in your position, I'd take the leap of faith and consider Toft ATC-2. According to Alan it'll be ready to ship in about 2 weeks. For $1300 list, you get 2 channels of transformerless fast slew rate pre with optocompression and EQ on both channels. Myself, I wouldn't try to track the guitar and vocals simultaneously, but if you do, MS isn't a bad way to go. The C-3 and a KM184, as suggested above, would be a good choice. If it were me, I'd check with PMI and find out when the C-4's can be shipped, buy a pair, and get an NTK for vocals. That's $2200 for the whole ball of wax, and leaves you enough for system upgrades and cables. If you choose C-3 instead, then you can do MS or use the C-3 for vocals and the C-4's on guit. PlanB- If you choose the RNP, you save beaucoup bucks, and could get the C-3, the C-4's, an NTK, and throw in an RNC for under $2000 total. Personally, I would happily gamble on PMI not bringing a turkey to market, but if you are skeptical, and want absolutely proven equipment, use plan B and substitute a pair of MK012's from The Sound Room for the C-4's.-Richie
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Beezoboy
Home Recording Guru
- $3000 - Budget
KM184 - $500
-Go on Ebay and look because you can get these mics much cheaper. Just make sure the person lives in the US. You can get a pair with the cherry box for $900 normally.
( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2502736606&category=15198 )
-Davisound TB-6 4ch Preamp ($950)
These preamps are getting rave reviews. Its my vote! The grace would be nice too though.
-Computer and soundcard - 1550 left
Build your own and go with an Aardvark Q10 soundcard. With it you'll get 8 more pre's and 4 inserts. Why get 8 more pre's?? Well other than the fact that they are better than a Mackie mixers pres, they give you another option for sound. They won't be as fat as the Davisounds, but they are clean with lots-o-gain. Best of all they have a great internal clock and sound good too. Also great drivers that work.
-Forget hardware compression, you can do it later in the computer if you want.
Good Luck
Beezoboy
KM184 - $500
-Go on Ebay and look because you can get these mics much cheaper. Just make sure the person lives in the US. You can get a pair with the cherry box for $900 normally.
( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2502736606&category=15198 )
-Davisound TB-6 4ch Preamp ($950)
These preamps are getting rave reviews. Its my vote! The grace would be nice too though.
-Computer and soundcard - 1550 left
Build your own and go with an Aardvark Q10 soundcard. With it you'll get 8 more pre's and 4 inserts. Why get 8 more pre's?? Well other than the fact that they are better than a Mackie mixers pres, they give you another option for sound. They won't be as fat as the Davisounds, but they are clean with lots-o-gain. Best of all they have a great internal clock and sound good too. Also great drivers that work.
-Forget hardware compression, you can do it later in the computer if you want.
Good Luck
Beezoboy
wes480
New member
good advice in this thread...
of the choices that you mentioned on your own (1, 2, or 3)..
I'd be tempted to go with option 1, get the pair of neumanns and a nice dual channel pre.
you'll never lose money on that investment.
at the same time...I'm not convinced that the kn184's are going to sound that much better than the upcoming c4s from studio projects - but that is based purely speculation and hype.
one thing i would tell you to stay away from in your situation would be the RNP. i don't think it's bad at all...and I think it has it's uses - HOWEVER, accurate representation of delicate fingerstyle guitar playing would NOT be one of them in my opinion. Even based on the self noise issues alone...RNP is a rock n' roll preamp.
Pres like Grace and Great River excel at that kind of clinical recording...I think Davissound would be excellent too - but I've only read about those, never used/heard one.
of the choices that you mentioned on your own (1, 2, or 3)..
I'd be tempted to go with option 1, get the pair of neumanns and a nice dual channel pre.
you'll never lose money on that investment.
at the same time...I'm not convinced that the kn184's are going to sound that much better than the upcoming c4s from studio projects - but that is based purely speculation and hype.
one thing i would tell you to stay away from in your situation would be the RNP. i don't think it's bad at all...and I think it has it's uses - HOWEVER, accurate representation of delicate fingerstyle guitar playing would NOT be one of them in my opinion. Even based on the self noise issues alone...RNP is a rock n' roll preamp.
Pres like Grace and Great River excel at that kind of clinical recording...I think Davissound would be excellent too - but I've only read about those, never used/heard one.
Z
ZPphreak
New member
Wes, you're just a gear slut.. give it up... hehe Of COURSE he should get the KM's... AND the Grace (It's Beautiful man.. ) .. BUT the c4's are a dilectable new mic that may have MANY more uses than the KM's.. I like the control of separate mics for the vocalist and the guitar myself.. mainly because I can't play all that consistant. so.. control is very much needed.. give me a call Wes if you're still on the board.. I'm BORED...
Peace guys
) .. BUT the c4's are a dilectable new mic that may have MANY more uses than the KM's.. I like the control of separate mics for the vocalist and the guitar myself.. mainly because I can't play all that consistant. so.. control is very much needed.. give me a call Wes if you're still on the board.. I'm BORED... Peace guys
V
vagabond
New member
Very good advice, again thanks.
I have read about SM micing and it sounds like a very viable option. However, I would really like to try stereo micing the guitar and single micing the vocals. How is this done? I've posed this question in the recording techniques forum.
At the moment I am considering this:
2 Neumann's ($1200)
1 Aardvark q10($800)
I read a review of the Aardvark on musiciansfriend. If the Aardvark pre's are as good as what I've read and been told then is an additional preamp neccesary? Will the sound be noticably improved?
I have read about SM micing and it sounds like a very viable option. However, I would really like to try stereo micing the guitar and single micing the vocals. How is this done? I've posed this question in the recording techniques forum.
At the moment I am considering this:
2 Neumann's ($1200)
1 Aardvark q10($800)
I read a review of the Aardvark on musiciansfriend. If the Aardvark pre's are as good as what I've read and been told then is an additional preamp neccesary? Will the sound be noticably improved?
B
Beezoboy
Home Recording Guru
ZPphreak - How can the C4's have more uses than the Neumanns. You can use the Neumanns, and they have been I assure you, for everything imaginable. The only thing I don't think you could use them on is toms, bass, snare, and bass drum. All of those might better be suited by a dynamic, but not neccesarily. I have read of some engineers using km84's for crazy things.
Vagabond - I think you are going the right direction, but a quality preamp will last you a lot longer than the Q10, so why not go ahead and get it too while you've got the money. You won't regret it. There is also the Aardvark 24/96 which only has 4 pre's but would save you a little money on the recording interface for the other 2 channel pre.
Beezoboy
Vagabond - I think you are going the right direction, but a quality preamp will last you a lot longer than the Q10, so why not go ahead and get it too while you've got the money. You won't regret it. There is also the Aardvark 24/96 which only has 4 pre's but would save you a little money on the recording interface for the other 2 channel pre.
Beezoboy
Z
ZPphreak
New member
Beezoboy- Can you set up a pair of cardioid Neumanns mics as a spaced Omni pair? The only thing I meant by that comment is that 4 capsules make a pair more versatile than 2 capsules. 2 pickup patterns are definitely better than 1 inthe versatility department. IMO of course.. I do see that the 184's are DEFINITELY a VERY versatile pair of cardioids.. BUT when you add all the different Omni-specific uses to the traditional list of cardioid applications I'm sure that the list would be longer than the 184's. Just My opinion though. I'm not in any way trying to say such a blanket statement as "the C4's are way better than the Neumans" I'm just saying they are probably more useful because of their appicataions.
I will be using them as a spaced Omni Pair as well as an XY & ORTF Cardioid pair in different situations for my uses. Also, because they have the option of Omni Capsules I will be able to take advantage of great sounding rooms while recording Piano and Choirs. This is how the different pickup patterns make the C4's more versatile for ME.. However I still sould LOVE to have the 184's..
Peace
I will be using them as a spaced Omni Pair as well as an XY & ORTF Cardioid pair in different situations for my uses. Also, because they have the option of Omni Capsules I will be able to take advantage of great sounding rooms while recording Piano and Choirs. This is how the different pickup patterns make the C4's more versatile for ME.. However I still sould LOVE to have the 184's..
Peace