My experiment to compare ITB mixing to analog summing.

Status
Not open for further replies.
RawDepth

RawDepth

New member
I mixed the same song twice using different methods. I wanted to know if I could hear any difference in the end results. I mixed them as WAV files, but converted them to mp3 for easy upload. I could upload the wavs if anyone needs to hear them.

The first mp3 (below) was mixed entirely in-the-box, (ITB). The second was mixed outside the box using a TL Audio A4 Summing Mixer. Both songs used the same recorded tracks and the EQ, effects, and levels were done before mixing and not changed in either case. Both songs also got the same compression treatment after mixing using a plug-in. Converters were RME.

For those who don't know...analog summing is when you send all individual tracks from your computer DAW out through multiple D/A converters to be combined in a special type of analog mixer. (A summing mixer has a very short signal path. Most have nothing on them but, panning and sometimes level controls.) Then you return the 2-mix (left and right channels,) back through a pair of A/D converters to be re-recorded inside the DAW or another digital recorder. All editing, EQing, effects, and volume control is usually done inside the DAW before going out to the summing box. Some summers include analog effects loops. All the summer really does is combine tracks. The theory or claim is that analog combining is superior to digital combining. You decide.

It may be difficult to hear the differences using mp3 files over the Internet, but I can really hear a noticeably clearer and more focused mix when listening to the WAV files on my monitors. In the analog mix, at about 1:00 minute in, the backup vocals seem to come from very specific spots in the soundfield...more so than the digital mix. The analog mix seems to have more depth while the digital mix sounds slightly more blurred or smeared to me.


In-The-Box:


Analog Summer:


What do you think? Do you notice any difference?
 
There's a noise (almost a crackling) in both, I an hear it when there are only instruments playing. The ITB versions sounds a tad brighter, which could be explained by the 'warmth' of the analog summer, I assume.
 
mjbphotos said:
There's a noise (almost a crackling) in both, I an hear it when there are only instruments playing. The ITB versions sounds a tad brighter, which could be explained by the 'warmth' of the analog summer, I assume.
Click to expand...

The "crackling" you are hearing is a percussion instrument called a Guiro. (Panned 50% right in this song.) Played a certain way, it sort of resembles a squeaking rocking chair. A front-porch band was the feel that the artist was seeking in this song. If you can't hear it very well, perhaps you need better monitors. It is crystal clear in my Eve 305's.

Thanks for the comments.
 
It would have been interesting for you to have posted the two versions without identifying which is which.

That way there would be no pre-conditioning.
 
I'm not sure I would describe analog combining as better, just different.

I do hear what you are hearing , but that is where it becomes less of a debate about which is better sounding.

Would a saturation (dare I say 'warming/tape saturation' plug') do the same for the ITB mix? I don't fucking know.


That is what is so hard to differentiate with analog summing. It 'IS' an effect.


*Annoying yet possible fun analogy:

Comparing two grapefruits: You take one and eat it straight off the tree. The other one you put in the fridge and eat it later with some sugar on it. Hmm.. the cold sweet one tastes better.

What if it were a cold day when you picked it and added sugar then? Would it be less good? IDK.

???

:)
 
jimmys69 said:
Comparing two grapefruits: You take one and eat it straight off the tree. The other one you put in the fridge and eat it later with some sugar on it. Hmm.. the cold sweet one tastes better.
Click to expand...
Back in the late 90s my corporation bought a grapefruit grove outside of Tampa with the intention of building a residential recording studio complex. It was extremely poorly planned, funding and psychic energy ran out, and we ended up having to sell off the parcel. I lived in tent there for a few months, and had grapefruit right off the tree every day. It was pretty cool.
 
To my ear...and just listening on the computer speakers....

The ITB is a bit strident compared to the analog summing....but also, I hear a bit more 3D depth/fullness, vertically in the analog sum version, where the ITB feels somewhat more flatter/2D.
It's very minor differences with both things, but there.
 
RawDepth said:
The "crackling" you are hearing is a percussion instrument called a Guiro. (Panned 50% right in this song.) Played a certain way, it sort of resembles a squeaking rocking chair. A front-porch band was the feel that the artist was seeking in this song. If you can't hear it very well, perhaps you need better monitors. It is crystal clear in my Eve 305's.

Thanks for the comments.
Click to expand...

I was listening on computer speakers - box Gateway 3"/1". If it sounds like crackling on these, what's it going to sound like on earbuds or cheaper flat computer speakers?
 
mjbphotos said:
I was listening on computer speakers - box Gateway 3"/1". If it sounds like crackling on these, what's it going to sound like on earbuds or cheaper flat computer speakers?
Click to expand...
I see your point. I'll suggest to the artist that we remove it, but she has the final say. It's her song.

Thanks again for bringing it to our attention.
 
RawDepth said:
I see your point. I'll suggest to the artist that we remove it, but she has the final say. It's her song.

Thanks again for bringing it to our attention.
Click to expand...

I think that usually a guiro sounds better a little louder, but 'back' in the mix - a little room/reverb, rather than close-miked.
 
I have no problem with the guiro. I thought it sounded fine. However, bringing it forward may make it more distinct.
 
I didnt hear a difference.
What does that mean? for me it means get rid of gear that isnt needed in the loop.
 
The ITB version is brighter and to my ears has more going on in the HF end, however - sticking both into a spectrum display in AU shows there is HF content in both, and although some differences not the huge amount my ears seemed to indicate. Preference for me is the ITB version. I don't know why - it just sounds a bit cleaner, the other, by comparison is a bit duller.

I can't believe the guiro was mistaken for a fault, but I guess I've been listening to latin music for too long - thanks Santana. It doesn't seem too prominent for me. If we're talking prominent, then that damn organ needs to go. It's a quite nasty, Farfisa-ish 70s texture that really needs swapping for a Hammond - and that long sustained note for me is in need of at least a fade or total removal. The mix seems very full - little breathing space anywhere. This needs, in my humble opinion, dealing with before worrying about subtleties of tone in the mix. I can't see the point of an external summing mixer and extra A/D D/A conversions. I took the tracks into my studio and used my system in there so I could listen properly. SO my vote is do it inside the box, and scrap that horrible organ!
 
Since the OP has a summing box...maybe he can post up another pair of mixes without revealing ahead of time which is which.
 
you can usually just eq the ITB mix to sound very close to the analog summing mix.



99.9% of folks will never hear the difference then.
 
Yes, the TL Audio summing mixer sounds better than ITB summing

Thank you for posting your test. I listened to the streamed mp3s and the TL Audio version was more 3-dimensional than ITB. Your reference to the background vocals was a good spot to hone in. 2:30-3:00 is another spot where ITB sounds more congested. The TL Audio version was a more engaging experience.
Disclaimer: I'm using Audeze LCD-2 headphones with a Silver Dragon cable. Probably wouldn't hear the difference on a boom box.
EQ could not match ITB to OTB in this case, as one poster suggested.
Not sure why people were focusing on the guiro. I liked the mix.
I joined the forum to make this post because I was appreciative of the test. Later!
 
RawDepth said:
Then you return the 2-mix (left and right channels,) back through a pair of A/D converters to be re-recorded inside the DAW or another digital recorder.
Click to expand...

When the playback and record converters are not clocked they call the setup decoupled. Decoupling the converters is a separate technique from analog summing and can be done with an ITB mix as well. There are those who think that decoupling is the key to the supposed improvements and that analog summing is a dead end.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top