foo
Active member
juststartingout said:
Just got back from England.
Gas was almost $6 a gallon.
. . . and that's adjusted for the smaller US gallon, not the Imperial (UK) gallon.
Shut up and play yer guitar!
Just got back from England.
Gas was almost $6 a gallon.
. . . and that's adjusted for the smaller US gallon, not the Imperial (UK) gallon.
Shut up and play yer guitar!
noisedude
New member
You damn right! Talk to me about petrol prices!!!!!
I would love a proper flute or a REAL grand piano. I don't think I'm an ass for that. A £2000 guitar would be wasted on me though ... I managed to make my £300 ones sound pretty crap!!!!
I would love a proper flute or a REAL grand piano. I don't think I'm an ass for that. A £2000 guitar would be wasted on me though ... I managed to make my £300 ones sound pretty crap!!!!
Garry Sharp
Lost Cause
Supercreep said:
No apology necessary, unless it's from me - there's always this issue on a bbs of tone being misread. What I meant was that a full on string section interpreting, say. Handel or Mendelssohn is different from, but just as powerful as, any of our favourite guitar heros. Your guess is as good as mine when it comes to why orchestral string instruments cost so much. I think that lower production volumes and the fact that they don't incorporate the reliably repeatable electronic element of modern instruments must be the main reasons. We are certainly not in the world of commercial exploitation here.
N
Nateneal1966
New member
charge what they will pay
Law of supply and demand.
Although the price is high, to make something in america and give someone a living wage is right in line with what they charge. If you like the crap buy the crap. if you can find it cheaper do it. if you can make it cheaper and sell it go for it.
The best guitar I have ever played was a parker fly. it was 2k per the owner. if you want to play you got to pay.
By the way buy american if you can. i know its pricier but lets keep ourselves in business
Law of supply and demand.
Although the price is high, to make something in america and give someone a living wage is right in line with what they charge. If you like the crap buy the crap. if you can find it cheaper do it. if you can make it cheaper and sell it go for it.
The best guitar I have ever played was a parker fly. it was 2k per the owner. if you want to play you got to pay.
By the way buy american if you can. i know its pricier but lets keep ourselves in business
Light
New member
Supercreep said:
That's because you have never tried any high end woodwork. If you had, you could stop talking out of your ass.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
M
metalj
New member
Light said:
wow, another post from the light. Imagine that. Just one suggestion for you. You need a better catch phrase than "stop talking out of your ass".
anyone have any suggestions for him ???????
Light
New member
metalj said:wow, another post from the light. Imagine that. Just one suggestion for you. You need a better catch phrase than "stop talking out of your ass".
anyone have any suggestions for him ???????
Look, bow makers put a lot of work into making a good bow. God knows I can't do it. They charge for the labor they put into their product. Your saying that it is ridiculous shows an absolute contempt for the skills, experience, and labor of some excellent craftsmen. As a rather decent craftsman myself, you'll excuse me if I get a little pissed off at people dismissing out labor. At least when we go to work, we actually create something.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
J
juststartingout
New member
metalj said:wow, another post from the light. Imagine that. Just one suggestion for you. You need a better catch phrase than "stop talking out of your ass".
anyone have any suggestions for him ???????
No, that covers it just fine.
The people that say 'they charge to much' are also the people that want a lot of money to do an insignificant job. You guys just don't realize how much it costs or what goes into products today. If you want something mass produced, get a jap strat. If you want something made, that someone takes the time to set up and perfect, then shell out some bucks. It's the difference between making 20 units per day, vs. 20 units per year.
Please, go out and buy some wood and make a guitar. Then set it up, shine it up, find a buyer and back it up. I will guarentee, it will take more than a week to do and you will not sell it for $300.
philboyd studge
New member
Geez this tread is getting testy.
As someone who has privately bought, sold and traded guitars and other stringed instruments for over 40 years, I can make a few observations.
Most importantly we are right now in the middle of the golden age of guitars.
There is more excellent product out there at a more competitive price than ever.
The smaller independants are turning out product that simply wasn't available in the past to those who respect and are willing to pay for such craftsmanship.
Major manufacturers are countering with excellent custom shop product, and though expensive, they are worth it if you can afford it.
An American made Strat at $1200 is cheaper than it was 40 years ago. Same for other product standards like a Gibson J-45, Martin D-28, or a Les Paul.
When we start talking about guitars in the $300 range we're dealing with something at a level of quality at a price that didn't used to exist......that $300 would have got you an awful plywood Kay (my first guitar) or Stella.
Yet with all that said, with folks like Esteban leading the way, crap will continue to be made, sometimes by the same manufacturers that turn out some of the best guitars.
As someone who has privately bought, sold and traded guitars and other stringed instruments for over 40 years, I can make a few observations.
Most importantly we are right now in the middle of the golden age of guitars.
There is more excellent product out there at a more competitive price than ever.
The smaller independants are turning out product that simply wasn't available in the past to those who respect and are willing to pay for such craftsmanship.
Major manufacturers are countering with excellent custom shop product, and though expensive, they are worth it if you can afford it.
An American made Strat at $1200 is cheaper than it was 40 years ago. Same for other product standards like a Gibson J-45, Martin D-28, or a Les Paul.
When we start talking about guitars in the $300 range we're dealing with something at a level of quality at a price that didn't used to exist......that $300 would have got you an awful plywood Kay (my first guitar) or Stella.
Yet with all that said, with folks like Esteban leading the way, crap will continue to be made, sometimes by the same manufacturers that turn out some of the best guitars.
H
Henri Devill
New member
philboyd studge said:
Very true!You had to spend real cash back then to get anything worth playing!
Supercreep
Lizard People
Light said:
No, actually it's ridiculous. I don't care who pays 2,000 for a bow, I'll tell them to their face that that is a ridiculous sum of money to pay. I feel the same way about diamonds. Maybe that 11,000 dollar steak you just ate was the best ever, but in my eyes you're a buffoon.
Plenty of people will continue to waste their money regardless of what I think, and it's only my opinion - so try to relax, Light.
Supercreep
Lizard People
juststartingout said:
noisedude
New member
So you think that, by making yourself look ignorant and by entirely failing to understand how a simple supply/demand system works for a high quality item, we should all somehow come to agree with you?
I will quite happily offer to tell you to your face that you're ignorant. So what will that achieve? You'll still be ignorant, and I'll have a sore nose. Doesn't help anyone.
Not everything is as easy to build as a guitar. And that's saying something, because guitars aren't so easy either.
I will quite happily offer to tell you to your face that you're ignorant. So what will that achieve? You'll still be ignorant, and I'll have a sore nose. Doesn't help anyone.
Not everything is as easy to build as a guitar. And that's saying something, because guitars aren't so easy either.
Supercreep
Lizard People
Light said:
Taking the hyperbole a little far, no?
I don't have " an absolute contempt" for artisans. I don't want to harm "some excellent craftsman". If you want to build little sticks and sell them for eleventy million billion dollars, you should do it. I don't claim knowledge I don't have, but my bullshit detector keeps going off when you intone that a proffessional level bow just can't be had for less than 2k. You still haven't told me a thing about why a bow needs to cost that much to be "good", only that "bow makers put a lot of work into making a good bow".
Well, shoe makers put a lot of work into making a good shoe, too - but I don't need to spend a small fortune for a pair. Maybe not the most apt analogy ever. Anyway, without getting your panties all in a bunch, explain why something that looks so easily fabricated with a minimum of easily obtainable components can't be had for less than 2,000 dollars, unless it's the name you're paying for and not the product. No pun intended, but I'm not buying it.
P.S. I don't know what dismissing out labor is, but I'm pretty sure I don't do that either.
Supercreep
Lizard People
noisedude said:
I just hate being out of line. So silver flutes sound good, but gold ones sound better? What about platinum flutes, with diamond studs? What if you carved a flute from a single flawless ruby - how would that sound?
I'm teasing. I'm certain that there are materials that are really expensive and hard to work that are necessary to make an instrument sound great. There are also one-of-a-kind instruments that sound great. My point is that it seems outrageous after a certain point. I've heard great performances of classical guitar played on an instrument that cost WAY less than 6,000.000.
The fact is that a quality instrument can be had for much less, and yet there are those who assert that you "can't get in the door" for that price indicates a certain emporer wears no clothes type of mentality - a groupthink that tells us product A is vastly superior to product B because dammit, somebody worked hard on it and it sure costs a lot. A guitar dosen't need to be meticulously hand-shaped to be excellent. I think we're talking about a certain level of snobbish one-upsmanship attitudes coming from some classical and less frequently some jazz folks about their relative self-importance to the musical community they belong to - it's not their opinions that I dislike, it's their disdain and disregard for other's opinions(and guitars, and cars, and clothes, and politics)that I think dosen't help.
So - now you have my reasons why I think I'm not "way out of line." Please explain to me why I am.
Supercreep
Lizard People
noisedude said:
Huh?
I don't think I'm entirely failing to understand anything. I would never strike another human being for disagreeing with me, or even telling me i'm ingnorant(as long as they're not using their fists or feet to do it). Please, go back and read what i've said, and come back with some kind of cogent response.
Some analysis of your post, in a nutshell:
1) Supercreep makes himself look ignorant
2) Supercreep dosen't understand how a simple supply/demand system works for a high quality item, therefore:
3) Supercreep must therefore think all sentient creatures share his opinions on such subjects, and so
4) I will relate to Supercreep that he is ignorant, and Supercreep will cause my nose to be sore;
3) Guitars are easy to build
4) Guitars are also hard to build
Noisedude, I've read a lot of your posts in the few years I've been around. This isn't the best one, i'm afraid. I'm pretty sure you don't want to discuss economics, alothough I'm perfectly capable of that. Being that this is a music discussion forum, please explain to me why it is that a quality violin bow cannot be had for less than two thousand dollars. Or a classical guitar for less than six thousand. Or an excellent violin for less than two million.
I'm prepared to be proven wrong, so educamate me.
Supercreep
Lizard People
Light said:
Great link, and thank you, Light. I don't dispute that 2million dollar violins exist - he does indeed play a 2million plus violin, and sounds like a real down-to-earth guy.
I'd love to hear some A/B comparison of violins in the 2000 dollar to 2,000,000.00 range.
foo
Active member
Supercreep said:
I guess it comes down to the level you are playing at.
For the average Joe (or Itsac or . . .) who plays fiddle in a country band at the Dew Drop Inn every Friday night, yer basic ebony (graphite? plastic?) bow probably works just fine - even tho' Joe can probably tell there is some difference between the way he plays and the way the solo violinist in his local symphony orchestra plays.
But I guarantee you that the two guys sitting at the bar thinking about asking that cute girl to dance can't tell the differrence (and don't care that there is a difference!).
So a soloist who was born in Munich, trained in Milan and is now principle violinist in the San Francisco Symphony will demand the very best quality. Because he can tell the difference.
Could he play with the same bow as Joe at the Dew Drop Inn?
Of course - but why would he, because it simply can't perform at the level that he requires.
As for the bow's components being 'easily obtainable', check out this site:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues04/apr04/violin.html
My opinion is that someone performing at the highest level requires the very best equipment to do so.
It's always seemed to ridiculous to me that Formula One racing teams spend so much money - but I guarantee you that they buy the $28 titanium screws because it helps them go faster.
Why do recording studios use Neumann mics when an AT 4033 will do the job just as well for a minimum of $2,000 less? (flame me now you mic-heads
)Because they can tell the difference!
In my business, I use $17,000 Huxley roulette wheels because they perform marginally better than the $3,000 US-made wheels.
Why? Because I can tell the difference and I want the best .
If you can't tell the difference, then buy the cheaper one and have at it 'cos it's not going to make any sense to you that someone will pay so much more for something that you cannot see as being better.
But if they can see a difference, then they are happily going to pay more.
Supercreep
Lizard People
foo said:I guess it comes down to the level you are playing at.
For the average Joe (or Itsac or . . .) who plays fiddle in a country band at the Dew Drop Inn every Friday night, yer basic ebony (graphite? plastic?) bow probably works just fine - even tho' Joe can probably tell there is some difference between the way he plays and the way the solo violinist in his local symphony orchestra plays.
But I guarantee you that the two guys sitting at the bar thinking about asking that cute girl to dance can't tell the differrence (and don't care that there is a difference!).
So a soloist who was born in Munich, trained in Milan and is now principle violinist in the San Francisco Symphony will demand the very best quality. Because he can tell the difference.
Could he play with the same bow as Joe at the Dew Drop Inn?
Of course - but why would he, because it simply can't perform at the level that he requires.
As for the bow's components being 'easily obtainable', check out this site:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues04/apr04/violin.html
My opinion is that someone performing at the highest level requires the very best equipment to do so.
It's always seemed to ridiculous to me that Formula One racing teams spend so much money - but I guarantee you that they buy the $28 titanium screws because it helps them go faster.
Why do recording studios use Neumann mics when an AT 4033 will do the job just as well for a minimum of $2,000 less? (flame me now you mic-heads
Because they can tell the difference!
In my business, I use $17,000 Huxley roulette wheels because they perform marginally better than the $3,000 US-made wheels.
Why? Because I can tell the difference and I want the best .
If you can't tell the difference, then buy the cheaper one and have at it 'cos it's not going to make any sense to you that someone will pay so much more for something that you cannot see as being better.
But if they can see a difference, then they are happily going to pay more.
Excellent. Or not, as to the article - Money quote:
For centuries, Brazil's pernambuco tree has been harvested from the Mata Atlantica forests of the coastal plain and shipped to Europe and North America to be turned into bows for the world's orchestras. In recent years, however, bow makers have rallied together to try and save the tree, which is becoming scarce. So scarce that wood dealers must trek deep into the forest to find the remaining mature specimens. So scarce that international organizations have been debating measures to restrict the wood's use worldwide. And so scarce that bow makers from around the world have mobilized, starting an organization called the International Pernambuco Conservation Initiative (IPCI), with the mission of rescuing the species. In the process, they hope also to rescue their profession.
You make a great point about not being able to tell the difference. I most definitely cannot. And further, I don't get the whole 10,000 dollar mic thing either. If only wood from this tree will work, which I can't get my mind around but I guess that it must be so, then the violin bow becomes quite the boutique item. The article dosen't go into great detail about alternate materials, and suggests composites are promising, but emphasizes that no better substitute for Pernambuco has been found in hundreds of years.
Does the fate of the violin rest with the fate of the Pernambuco? I doubt it. And as you said, I can't tell the difference. Great link also from the Smithsonian about "The Anatomy of a Violin":http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues02/mar02/mall.html#violin I found interesting as well. I would love to hear a master play a 2k violin just to hear how much a difference there is. But as you say, if only the master can hear the difference, that's difference enough.
B
bh4554
New member
HangDawg said:
thats the thing - are they over priced etc... to u??!!
i've got a framus panthera custom and managed to pick it up for £ 600, a ridiculous bargain - but it plays(in my opinion) sweeter than any made recently.