Money to burn need direction

Dadhead82 said:
Ooof, that’s a little too close to the chest. I’d spin my wheels another 6 months because I need everything “perfect.” Sound advice to just begin and learn on what I have.

Tbh, it isn’t my first foray into recording—I started with an old tape recorder > a “mini disk” tascam > an mbox mini w/ a chronic crashing protools > and at present I (admittedly) have a 2nd gen Scarlet 2i2 that has two line outputs that I use with audacity. I have a shure 87a (?) microphone a pastor gave me years ago.

The idea to start over came recently when looking at additional microphones.

I am thinking (hoping) one of these interfaces is a step up from the Scarlet in terms of preamps, ins and outs. Truthfully, I’m just not impressed with the scarlet.
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The 2i2 was the top reccy for an interface a couple of years ago. I was never quite sure why? That Shure 87 is a "back electret" capacitor mic but intended for close vocal work like a dynamic hence its sensitivity is very modest at 2mV (Pa) which is only about 4dB hotter than a 58. I can assure you the M4 will be fine with it or even a 57/58 at sensible distances, say 6" for vocals, 12" for strummed guitar. However, the early electret mics did not age well so it might have lost a lot of its output.

Why do you want to record with 3 mics friend? You could, with the M4, use an external preamp and feed it into inputs 3/4. However, at this early stage look for a second hand mixer such as a Behringer Xenyx, Soundcraft notepad of a smallAllen &Heath. They will give you two extra mic channels and the ability to select various line sources such as CD player. synth. But, I suggest you nail the basics first.

Dave.
 
No 87 but some 86s and I really like their sound and if you don’t, and don’t like the interface you have, I suspect you are expecting your upgrade to somehow be a jump you will instantly hear, and I doubt you will. If something is missing it might be in the monitoring department. Ne thing we always find is that your brain frequently lies to you. I discovered recently one of my interfaces, which I had always liked has some issues I’d never ever heard in the recordings. Discovered when we were all trying something for another member. Same with mics and other things. A Shure SM48 does sound duller than the popular 58 and it’s easy to hear on almost any system. A noisy interface that runs out of clean gain when used with a deaf mic can be spotted, but once you have brighter mics and a good interface, improvements are often elusive, or in your head. I’d suggest you proceed piece by piece from returnable suppliers. Buy your preferred interface and see if you can hear anything. I suspect you’ll get your extra inputs and nothing else you can hear. Any new mic then purchased will sound different but better? I doubt it. Just better on some things worse on others. I’m lucky enough to have some very nice mics I wish I’d never bought. They are never my go yo mics. That remains the AKG 414 which had never failed at capturing a source well. And one of those and a SM57 is always on a stand somewhere. No point putting them away. Others never leave the box, ever.
 
Rob is of course 'Bob on'! There is every likely hood that very good results are possible from the 2i2 and the 87a but, if the chap has lost confidence in that kit IMHO he will never be comfortable using it. Getting a bang up to date technology interface and a microphone that we can all agree is good takes the equipment out of the equation. (the Mackie EM-91c is rather good for under $100)

Sources are also important, it has been said "to make a great guitar recording, first get a great guitar"! I shall also repeat a point that Rob touched on as did I...Get the best monitors you can afford. Make a scratch test recording, just "Mary had..." and post it here* with information such as room size, mic to cake receptacle distance. Photos are always very useful. Then the guys here can tell you if your room is just bad (they all are) or bloody awful and the steps you can take to improve it.

*For me, a .wav recording coded to a 320k MP3 is best as I can just stuff that straight into a DAW.

Dave.
 
Dadhead, if you've got a Martin D28, you've got good source material. The Scarlett can give you good recordings. I don't know the Beta 87a personally but I'm guessing it's not a piece of crap. Properly placed, it should be able to record that Martin just fine.

Set up your rig, pick a short song and record it. Maybe a bit of guitar and some of the mandolin. Don't worry about hitting a clam or two, we're more interested in the sound you're getting. The folks here will be able to give you some good advice on things like mic placement and room treatment just based on the sound you're getting. From there, you can narrow down what you might need for improvement.

FWIW, one of the reasons I went with my interface (Tascam 16x08) is because I didn't want the restriction of 2 inputs. Figure out what you think is the most you'll ever need, and then go the next step if you can. Its not that you can't record with just 2 mics, the additional inputs just give you choices.
 
CrowsofFritz said:
What everyone else has been saying is true. The ONLY thing I’ve noticed about my expensive mics is that I don’t have to EQ them nearly as much. They’re great right from the get-go. But with a little EQ its very difficult to discern between a cheap mic and an expensive one.
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I hear this and agree. But also, there's a value to that, right? Whatever can keep you creating and doing the parts you like while allowing you to focus less on the stuff that's a pain. I'd rather spend double for the mic today if it means I can save myself 5-10 minutes tooling around an EQ plugin every day that I track for the rest of my life.
 
TennMel said:
I hear this and agree. But also, there's a value to that, right? Whatever can keep you creating and doing the parts you like while allowing you to focus less on the stuff that's a pain. I'd rather spend double for the mic today if it means I can save myself 5-10 minutes tooling around an EQ plugin every day that I track for the rest of my life.
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There’s definitely value to that! Saves me headaches and saves clients some money since I charge by the hour.
 
Personally I wouldn't bother with a new interface unless you need more channels or are prepared to step up to an RME. The Focusrite is good for most things. However, if you want to record acoustic guitar on a budget I'd suggest looking at a pair of Line Audio CM4 mics. They're not flattering but they are very accurate and can be eq'd without any nasties coming out. The best thing is that they won't use up too much of your budget.
 
Perhaps I'm alone in this but am so disappointed given the title of this post. I have a rather grand wish list that would certainly burn through some cash. Haven't decided between dedicated converters and outboard pre's or something like the Cranborne 500 series frame with USB I/O loaded with an interesting assortment of preamps. Thing is that you've got plenty to learn and at this point, the hardware isn't going to be the differentiating factor. What you'll find is that among your list are clean linear preamps that will do the job. Decide on what you need for numbers of channels and spend your dollars on other tools that will make more of a difference.

The 87 is a hyper cardiod vocal mic that works for some voices and not so much on others. Can be a bit sibilant especially on female vocals but also on some male voices. Wouldn't be my choice for stringed instruments. You've got a decent instrument and that is the bulk of the battle. My choice would be the Motu and spend the rest of the money elsewhere.
 
Folkcafe said:
Perhaps I'm alone in this but am so disappointed given the title of this post. I have a rather grand wish list that would certainly burn through some cash. Haven't decided between dedicated converters and outboard pre's or something like the Cranborne 500 series frame with USB I/O loaded with an interesting assortment of preamps. Thing is that you've got plenty to learn and at this point, the hardware isn't going to be the differentiating factor. What you'll find is that among your list are clean linear preamps that will do the job. Decide on what you need for numbers of channels and spend your dollars on other tools that will make more of a difference.

The 87 is a hyper cardiod vocal mic that works for some voices and not so much on others. Can be a bit sibilant especially on female vocals but also on some male voices. Wouldn't be my choice for stringed instruments. You've got a decent instrument and that is the bulk of the battle. My choice would be the Motu and spend the rest of the money elsewhere.
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The electronic differences between the M4 and the 2i2 are only a few dBs. Lower noise, more pre amp gain but those few dBs push the M4 up close to the limits electronics can achieve (yes James on a par with RME!) so OP will be sure he has close to the very best AI he can get for his money. I say such confidence will be a huge help to him. The M4 is also very logical and easy to use.

I shall repeat my statement about monitors. The best microphone and pre amp/converter in the world is not worth Jack IF you cannot hear a faithful reproduction of the recording. I have just read a review of some Presonus Eris speakers and they are said to be very good for their money, around $500 a pair. Presonus are of course a very good name in the audio industry.

The fact is, peeps come to forums like this and always handwring about AIs/pres/mics but rarely consider the output side. These days there are no really 'bad' interfaces and some are incredibly cheap but good accurate monitors will always cost a few bob.

Dave.
 
Dadhead82 said:
Thank you. It’s just me—but as it stands I only have two microphone inputs on my 2i2 2nd gen and would like to record a pair of small condensers and a large condenser all at once. Sounds incredibly stupid—but I would need at least 3 mic inputs to do that.

Right?

Man, I felt dumb typing that.

Thanks again for your input sir
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I would seriously look at interfaces with 4 preamps if you can. I find that having things just set up so I can easily record without having to rearrange anything makes it easier to just "push the record button" whenever I need to. Julian Krause is a guy who has a YT channel with some good, in-depth technical reviews, and in each, you can get a peek at a spreadsheet he has that lists the features and his own, tested/measured specs to compare. Some of his other videos are also informative, e.g., he has one where he basically says noise specs on modern preamps really only matter if you are recording with dynamic (or probably passive ribbon) mics, because condenser's self-noise is always going to be above the noise floor!

I do not see any reason to get a preamp with the kind of mics and material you are looking to record. (If you stick with condenser mics. Corollary from first paragraph - the mic noise spec probably is something to consider, all else being equal.)

The mics are the first place the sound gets captured so I would tend to focus on that as much as possible. As others say/imply, there's no need to spend a fortune because there are lots of good mics at affordable prices. Clearly, there are differences, but they are subtle. Finding the mic(s) that work best for your sources in your space, etc., usually takes time. Finding out what others use and listening to recordings (not so much "shootouts") can help, but in the end, I'd say pick something with good reviews that is being used like you plan, and just start recording. (The AGF/Recording subforum has a "sticky" that lists equipment folks there use - mostly higher end, but it can maybe give you some leads.)

Don't forget good headphones for tracking, and monitors for mixing; and if you can, start budgeting for some sound treatment, or at least start reading about it :). I think that's a better place to spend money than esoteric monitors, or preamps.

FWIW, I use a Steinberg UR44C - not the best bang for the buck now, but when I bought it (required due to new computer not having FW), there was nothing else "on the shelves" with 4 preamps near its price. It works fine for what I do. I used a pair of Studio Projects C-4 small condensers or a couple different (dissimilar) SDCs. I've stuck with the old AKG C214 that was my first large[r] condenser, and a Miktek MK300, which I highly recommend. (I tried more expensive LDCs but did not find them a good value for my sources, honestly.)

Good luck.
 
Dadhead82 said:
Thank you. It’s just me—but as it stands I only have two microphone inputs on my 2i2 2nd gen and would like to record a pair of small condensers and a large condenser all at once. Sounds incredibly stupid—but I would need at least 3 mic inputs to do that.
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The Focusrite 18i8 has 4 mic preamps, and then some. I can't complain about the quality.
 
Keith, I would hardly call $500 a pr monitors "esoteric"! That is really the bottom line for anything decent and you can easily add a nought on the end and only be 'near top end' quality.

Headphones? Yes, OP needs some but folks will argue for ever whether really goods mixes can be done on them. In any case, cans are very subjective, not just the sound but fit, weight, clamping force!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Keith, I would hardly call $500 a pr monitors "esoteric"! That is really the bottom line for anything decent and you can easily add a nought on the end and only be 'near top end' quality.

Headphones? Yes, OP needs some but folks will argue for ever whether really goods mixes can be done on them. In any case, cans are very subjective, not just the sound but fit, weight, clamping force!

Dave.
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I don't think $500 is "esoteric" in the world of monitors. I spent less than that IIRC (edit - just checked, yes, Yamaha HS5 pair about 5 years ago), though I've considered that an upgrade I might make someday. (Emphasis on might! The last 2 years have rearranged my priorities more than once...)
 
Thanks for all the suggestions everybody—seems like a bright, warm and welcoming group. Think I’ll keep coming back :D

I am going to purchase the Motu M4– perhaps lateral move from the 2i2 but will have some more options with inputs. Maybe something like an RME someday..

Also a ldc and sdc mics—open to other suggestions as well.

- AKG 214 LDC (vocal and guitar?)
Or ?

- Shure sm81 Or
- AT 4041 Or
- sE7 pair
 
Dadhead82 said:
Thanks for all the suggestions everybody—seems like a bright, warm and welcoming group. Think I’ll keep coming back :D

I am going to purchase the Motu M4– perhaps lateral move from the 2i2 but will have some more options with inputs. Maybe something like an RME someday..

Also a ldc and sdc mics—open to other suggestions as well.

- AKG 214 LDC (vocal and guitar?)
Or ?

- Shure sm81 Or
- AT 4041 Or
- sE7 pair
Click to expand...

For my LDC mics, I have a Rode NT1, a Warm 47jr, an MXL V67G, two Studio Projects B3s and MXL 992, I've used them all for various recordings, most have been acoustic guitar or vocals. The NT1 is probably my favorite for my vocals. The 47jr is relatively new and I've only used it on one test session and one vocal (not mine). It sounded great.

I have a pair of AKG 170s, a pair of Rode M5s, and a pair of Lauten LA120s for SDCs. They all sound good, just different from each other. I posted a comparison a year or so ago of the three.

For recording, I either use my Tascam 16x08 or my Zoom R24, depending on where I'm recording. The Tascam stays in the basement tethered to the computer. The Zoom can go upstairs to the bedroom if I want, or go in the trunk if I'm recording away from home. I think the Tascam sounds better, but that portability of the Zoom is really handy.

As I and others have mentioned, you need to be able to hear what you're recording. What are you using to monitor your signal now?
 
TalismanRich said:
For my LDC mics, I have a Rode NT1, a Warm 47jr, an MXL V67G, two Studio Projects B3s and MXL 992, I've used them all for various recordings, most have been acoustic guitar or vocals. The NT1 is probably my favorite for my vocals. The 47jr is relatively new and I've only used it on one test session and one vocal (not mine). It sounded great.

I have a pair of AKG 170s, a pair of Rode M5s, and a pair of Lauten LA120s for SDCs. They all sound good, just different from each other. I posted a comparison a year or so ago of the three.

For recording, I either use my Tascam 16x08 or my Zoom R24, depending on where I'm recording. The Tascam stays in the basement tethered to the computer. The Zoom can go upstairs to the bedroom if I want, or go in the trunk if I'm recording away from home. I think the Tascam sounds better, but that portability of the Zoom is really handy.

As I and others have mentioned, you need to be able to hear what you're recording. What are you using to monitor your signal now?
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Thank you for the mic suggestions, I’ll take a peek at those as well.


Monitoring? signal? : /

I’ve allocated all my funds for capturing purposes—-I guess the next step will be to figure out what dB and all those funny little lines on my screen mean.

I’ve never had monitors, just a pair of Behringer headphones that were given to me.

Low pass filter, high pass filter, balanced and unbalanced cables…omnidirectional…
These are all very much foreign concepts to me. I do like to write songs though so I’ve got that part down!
 
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