Money to burn need direction

[rob aylestone]

I think if we are being honest - we place far to much emphasis on capture. Fair enough, when there was poorly performing kit on the market, capture could be impacted - but so many poor captures are because of incorrect mic placement and horrible sounding recording spaces - NOT - the gear. If you have a mic - lets say an SM58, and then you spend five times the price on something else, it will just sound a bit different. Maybe different better, or different worse, but how will you tell if your headphones change the sound the mics hear? Think about guitars. why do we use different amps and speaker cabs for bass guitar than 6 string guitar? Because they sound different. Studio monitors are not designed to flatter, they're designed to reveal. Headphones do the same. I'm ancient and I know that on certain headphones, I need to not push the bass because they have artificially loud bass, and if I get it wrong, my mixes sound either boomy or weak. My memory usually tells me to sort of mis-hear the bass. For somebody less secure in what they are really hearing it can be horrible to mix wrong, but right? As people have said, I don't think there are any terrible mics. Perhaps a good analogy would be that microphones are like only having one make and model of car available to buy. we are arguing about the colour, and how a red one is better than a brown one. Maybe we have two makes - Ford and Honda - each with just one model in different colours (and prices) this is our dynamic and condensers. We could put dirt cheap tyres on any of them, or really good performing ones - maybe this is like the monitor system. A wonderful car, in a gorgeous colour, running on remoulded, cheap rubber? Worse still, when we start talking about boutique audio products, this is a little like getting excited by very subtle shades in the colour choices.

 

[keith.rogers]

Thanks for all the suggestions everybody—seems like a bright, warm and welcoming group. Think I’ll keep coming back

I am going to purchase the Motu M4– perhaps lateral move from the 2i2 but will have some more options with inputs. Maybe something like an RME someday..

Also a ldc and sdc mics—open to other suggestions as well.

- AKG 214 LDC (vocal and guitar?)
Or ?

- Shure sm81 Or
- AT 4041 Or
- sE7 pair

I'll echo @jamesperrett and say I don't think the M4, while an excellent interface, is something that's going to bring an audible difference to what you are tracking with a F'rite 2i2. Either go to 4 channels or stay with the 2i2 would save you money to put into other stuff. I had an old Saffire (previous version of F'rite interfaces) and it was absolutely fine for recording.

And, first on that [other stuff] list would be a good pair of headphones, for pete's sake. Sony 7506 are pretty good, all-around cans for both tracking and mixing if you don't want to go to speakers for now. Yes, a little biased, but if it sounds *bad* on them, you can be pretty sure it's a bad mix. There are lots of options, of course, but they're one of the good values, and easy to get pads for when they need replaced.

If you are recording singer/songwriter, you don't really need a pair of SDCs, IMHO/IME. A pair of SDCs is maybe something you'd use for solo guitar, but you have one mic, and you can use *any* 2nd mic if you really want a stereo guitar track. Record the guitar with the same LDC you use for vocals, and buy just one good one. Unless the Shure you have is broken, use it for vocals, and put your WA-14 (e.g., a C414 clone, or something similar) on the guitar, or vice versa! Test recording, listen, move stuff around, change gain, etc., record again... Rinse and repeat...

Headphones and one good LDC is only half your budget, maybe a bit more with a good stand and cable, taxes, whatever, but sit on the rest until you do enough recording to know what is working, and when it's not, ask whether it's equipment or what (at a place like this).

 

[WWLaidback]

Hello,

I am looking to get some feedback on a USB audio interface, a preamp and maybe some microphones. Bare bones basic recording with a Martin D28, a couple of nice spruce top mandolins, and a walnut (nice and dark) squareneck dobro. I sing some if I have songs with words.
I've been given the greenlight for $1k (within reason). I am still thinking it's a trap.

I have Interfaces narrowed down to the following, but open to other suggestions:
Motu M4 (cheapest at 270USD)
Tascam 208i
Solid State 2+
Steinberg UR-RT2 (spendiest at 380USD)
----
Re preamps, I haven't a clue if it's completely necessary--and further haven't priced them out yet. If anyone has any insight ("yes, you will need a preamp dummy") or suggestions on which to look into, I am all ears.
----
For microphones, it seems like a pair of small condenser microphones (like sE, lewitt, lauten audio, or line audio) and/or a large condenser for vox, room. If I can get by w/o an external preamp at this time, I would obviously sink more into the microphones.

Any advice, thoughts, snide remarks are all welcome. I am really lost in all this but want to record some stuff for the kids. thanks!

Focusite Scarlette is pretty good for your USB DAW.
It has mic and instrument inputs.
I have a MXL 990 condenser mic for acoustic & vocals.
The positioning of the condensor mic is critical according to Amy Winehouse's recording engineer.
Here's a picture of moi working with about the right set up.
The condenser mike should be a little bit toward the neck instead of square in front of the sound hole.
PS: congratulations on your D28 Martin. They make fine guitars.

 

[TalismanRich]

I'll give you two options that would be how I would proceed given the same situation. Scheme A would be if you will never need 4 channels recorded at one time. You could record with two mics on things like guitar then overdub vocals, mandolin, etc. Scheme B would allow you to record several people at once if you needed.

These are all retail prices. I'm pretty sure if you called MF or Sweetwater and worked a bit you could knock at least 5% off, maybe more.

Scheme A
Keep the Scarlett
Kali LP6 monitors - 280
Pair of SE7 SDC -230
AT AT50x or DT770 -150
Leaves $340 for LDC (lots of options)
-Warm 47jr
-Rode NT1
-Miktek 300
-AT4040
-Senn MK4

Scheme B
Sell the Scarlett for $120
Presonus Studio 68c -330 (4 mic channels)
Kali LP6 -280
Pair SE7 SDC -230
AKG 240 -70
Leaves 210 for LDC
-Aston Origin
-AKG P420
-SE Xl1bundle

 

[Dadhead82]

Focusite Scarlette is pretty good for your USB DAW.
It has mic and instrument inputs.
I have a MXL 990 condenser mic for acoustic & vocals.
The positioning of the condensor mic is critical according to Amy Winehouse's recording engineer.
Here's a picture of moi working with about the right set up.
The condenser mike should be a little bit toward the neck instead of square in front of the sound hole.
PS: congratulations on your D28 Martin. They make fine guitars.

View attachment 115227

Thank you for your insight WWLaidback, it is much appreciated. Yes—never thought I’d have a Martin D28 but was gifted to me by my dad following my grandfathers passing. Good way to commemorate my grandfather—and my dad. And, with any luck I can pass it on to my kids. I’ve had quite the luck with guitars over the years—had a nice 80s Guild jumbo in my possession for some time. Loved that thing, it loved a dropped D tuning and I could literally knock it around!!

 

[Dadhead82]

It’s done.


Thanks everybody for your help. I stuck [close] to the proposed budget [sort of] and heeded the advice [eventually] on the monitors and phones. Makes sense. Now i should start the process of learning the DAW better and EQ’ing.

On an unrelated note, I have a heck of a deal on a garden tiller and gently used microwave if anyone is interested. :•}

 

[ecc83]

Thank you for the mic suggestions, I’ll take a peek at those as well.


Monitoring? signal? : /

I’ve allocated all my funds for capturing purposes—-I guess the next step will be to figure out what dB and all those funny little lines on my screen mean.

I’ve never had monitors, just a pair of Behringer headphones that were given to me.

Low pass filter, high pass filter, balanced and unbalanced cables…omnidirectional…
These are all very much foreign concepts to me. I do like to write songs though so I’ve got that part down!

I think I can put your mind at rest about most of those technical terms?
Monitors and a "Monitor Controller" (the latter you don't need): I am sure you have/have seen a hi fi rig with stereo amplifier and speakers? They are 'passive' speakers because they need a remote amp to drive them. Most home recording speakers are 'active', they have the amps built in. This means they can be driven from low power devices such as interfaces and mixers. For reasons we need not go into for now, some folks like to interpose a volume control and source switching system between the AI's output and the active monitors. The output control on the M4 will do you famously instead.

Decibels: BIG subject but there is only one 'decibel' term you should understand and that is the level meter scale on a DAW software. This (usually) has "0dBFS" at the top and all other markings as negative dBs. "dBFS stands for 'Full Scale' and is the absolute level limit of the digital system, stay at least 6dB from it and 10dB will not hurt! Record at 24bits (your DAW will give you the options) and usually 44.1kHz and keep the average of your signals bouncing around -20dBFS. The resulting 'waveforms may look wee but worry not, all will be fine because once happy with the take you can digitally boost the recording to peak just under 0dBFS if you so wish.

Omnidirectional: A microphone that picks up sound equally from all directions. Similarly a loudspeaker that RADIATES sound in all directions. Most of the time we want 'unidirectional' mics and speakers are almost always directional to some degree.

Low pass filter: Treble cut.
High pass filter: Bass cut.

Balanced: A means of interconnection that strongly rejects interfering signals such a hum. Microphones and mic inputs are always balanced and it is nice if other 'line' inputs are as well but in a compact HR rig it does not usually matter.

Naturally this has been THE briefest skim over the techno-babble but don't sweat it. I am of the strong opinion that musicians and home recordists should learn as much technical stuff as possible as it can only help them. Making music has always gone hand in hand with technology...even the voice is vastly improved by a nice building and THAT's tech!

Dave.

 

[TheSynthDev]

Hi there!

I'm glad to hear that you have been given the greenlight to invest in some basic recording equipment! $1,000 is a great budget to work with, and I think you will be able to find some great pieces of gear within that range.

First, I would recommend looking into a USB audio interface. This will allow you to connect your instruments and microphones to your computer and record directly into your DAW (digital audio workstation). There are many great options available within your budget, so it really depends on what features are important to you. Some popular interfaces within this price range include the MOTU M4 and the Presonus AudioBox 1818VSL.

Next, I would recommend looking into a preamp. A preamp will amplify the signal from your instruments or microphones before it enters the digital realm, which can be beneficial if you are using low-level sources like a guitar or mandolin. There are many great preamps available within your budget, so again it comes down to what features are important to you. Some popular options include the ART Tube MP Studio V3 and the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2.


_______
Jason Hook. Audio Enthusiast and Software Developer
Remove or Isolate Vocals from any Song https://www.UnMixIt.com/

 

[rob aylestone]

Jason, with great respect, have you read the topic? We’ve been talking about interfaces, and already explained that there is, in virtually every entry level setup, no point even considering things like preamps like the ART. Without sophisticated monitoring that he cannot justify, it’s pointless. Noise is rarely an issue, so these devices are about processing, something a little higher up the experience level, and for many people totally unnecessary and a bit pointless. Do you like your ART? Perhaps you could share one of your recordings using it where it’s expense is justified. My point is that the OP has a bit of money to spend, and it needs spending on things that matter, as the thread has talked about. You seem to have read just a few posts, like quite a few others in the past day or so, where you’ve done the same thing, not even noticing the date of the topics. We have some great people here, often with wildly different opinions which is healthy but there really are few who would suggest a clever preamp is a sensible item for the shopping list here.

 

[ecc83]

Jason, with great respect, have you read the topic? We’ve been talking about interfaces, and already explained that there is, in virtually every entry level setup, no point even considering things like preamps like the ART. Without sophisticated monitoring that he cannot justify, it’s pointless. Noise is rarely an issue, so these devices are about processing, something a little higher up the experience level, and for many people totally unnecessary and a bit pointless. Do you like your ART? Perhaps you could share one of your recordings using it where it’s expense is justified. My point is that the OP has a bit of money to spend, and it needs spending on things that matter, as the thread has talked about. You seem to have read just a few posts, like quite a few others in the past day or so, where you’ve done the same thing, not even noticing the date of the topics. We have some great people here, often with wildly different opinions which is healthy but there really are few who would suggest a clever preamp is a sensible item for the shopping list here.

Indeed. There was a time when the pre amps on USB interfaces were pretty dire, low in gain and noisy with it. Those days have largely gone, even really low priced AIs like the Behringer UMC series have really quite useful pre amps which will allow the use of dynamic mics at reasonable distances, say 100mm for speech and twice that for singing or chord guitar (though they might struggle with an SM7b or distant ribbon!)

I am sure you are all fed up with me banging on about the M4! But the preamps on that are even a cut above most on interfaces in terms of noise and usable gain. So no, OP does NOT need a pre amp. The only reason would be for 'attitude' ( aka 'distortion') and it must always be remembered that 'effecting' going in cannot be undone.

But! We have all at some time 'skimmed' a thread and grasped the wrong end of the stick so, peace to all.

Dave.

 

[Folkcafe]

Indeed. There was a time when the pre amps on USB interfaces were pretty dire, low in gain and noisy with it. Those days have largely gone, even really low priced AIs like the Behringer UMC series have really quite useful pre amps which will allow the use of dynamic mics at reasonable distances, say 100mm for speech and twice that for singing or chord guitar (though they might struggle with an SM7b or distant ribbon!)

I am sure you are all fed up with me banging on about the M4! But the preamps on that are even a cut above most on interfaces in terms of noise and usable gain. So no, OP does NOT need a pre amp. The only reason would be for 'attitude' ( aka 'distortion') and it must always be remembered that 'effecting' going in cannot be undone.

But! We have all at some time 'skimmed' a thread and grasped the wrong end of the stick so, peace to all.

Dave.

When I remodeled the studio treatment, I used REW software to measure room acoustics from empty and through mock up and final. One of the first set up steps for REW is a loop back test to create a reference file in case your interface isn't linear. I have a few interfaces including the UMC. Was surprised at how flat the response was from 5hz to 22k. Worth downloading the free software even if just to do this test but I'd guess that you'll likely get similar results with most interfaces these days. My point in suggesting this is that a measured visual representation of the interface performance might just persuade you that even the most basic unit isn't the weak point unless gain is an issue. Even then a Klark Techniks booster for $45 would be a simple, cheap and clean addition.

 

[Dadhead82]

Jason, with great respect, have you read the topic? We’ve been talking about interfaces, and already explained that there is, in virtually every entry level setup, no point even considering things like preamps like the ART. Without sophisticated monitoring that he cannot justify, it’s pointless. Noise is rarely an issue, so these devices are about processing, something a little higher up the experience level, and for many people totally unnecessary and a bit pointless. Do you like your ART? Perhaps you could share one of your recordings using it where it’s expense is justified. My point is that the OP has a bit of money to spend, and it needs spending on things that matter, as the thread has talked about. You seem to have read just a few posts, like quite a few others in the past day or so, where you’ve done the same thing, not even noticing the date of the topics. We have some great people here, often with wildly different opinions which is healthy but there really are few who would suggest a clever preamp is a sensible item for the shopping list here.

Yes, my intention in my OP was to draw a red circle around what’s unnecessary with a limited budget. Preamps were a big question. I believe the overwhelming response was that many AIs at this price point had a decent preamp that would suffice (at my level, for solo hobby recording of acoustic instruments) and that in fact more focus be placed on monitoring, correct mic placement and room treatment.

I didn’t want to get lost in the weeds with unnecessary expenditures while also being satisfied with purchasing things I felt i wanted. Direction without derision and I felt that all of the contributions were very much worthwhile and appreciated.

Today is Christmas (if I’m home to sign for my packages—otherwise it’s tomorrow:/ )
and this is what I’m expecting:

-Decent small studio monitors (I won’t mention the brand, and I did not spend a LOT, but am hopeful based on reviews)
-Pretty decent studio headphones
-2 more Mic stands
-2 more balanced xlr cables
-A WA-14 ldc mic
-Pair of se7s sdc mics
-A Motu M4 to replace the 2 gen Scarlett. Though it may be viewed as a lateral and unnecessary move, I think I will be happy with additional inputs and outputs and possibly better preamps even if by degrees.

Learning better mic placement, learning how to treat my space (cheaply) and learning how to actually mix and edit on a DAW will be my next adventures.

 

[rob aylestone]

That all seems very sensible and good use of the budget. Don't know the WA-14 mic, but I trust Thomann and it has a lot of useful features for the money. The two SDCs again I do know and they are rather nice and excellent value.

Let us know how it all goes together!

 

[grimtraveller]

Perhaps a good analogy would be that microphones are like only having two makes [of car]- Ford and Honda - each with just one model in different colours (and prices) this is our dynamic and condensers. We could put dirt cheap tyres on any of them, or really good performing ones - maybe this is like the monitor system. A wonderful car, in a gorgeous colour, running on remoulded, cheap rubber? Worse still, when we start talking about boutique audio products, this is a little like getting excited by very subtle shades in the colour choices.

Perhaps a good analogy ?
Rob, that is one of the best analogies I've ever come across !

 

[keith.rogers]

It is a very good analogy, though you do have to accept that there are some vehicles that are so ill-suited to a purpose that their choice will determine a failure from the start. You don't bring a Fiat 500 to a tractor pull, even if you goose it up with a turbo-kit and 20" wheels, or suggest a Lambo to plow a field, just because that's the micvehicle they have access to.

 

[ecc83]

It is a very good analogy, though you do have to accept that there are some vehicles that are so ill-suited to a purpose that their choice will determine a failure from the start. You don't bring a Fiat 500 to a tractor pull, even if you goose it up with a turbo-kit and 20" wheels, or suggest a Lambo to plow a field, just because that's the micvehicle they have access to.

Jeremy Clarkson bought a huge Lambo tractor!

Dave.

 

[keith.rogers]

Jeremy Clarkson bought a huge Lambo tractor!

Dave.

LOL. I knew there was a reason that image popped into my head and I kept thinking I should use a different brand, but couldn’t put my finger on it. Well, let’s say there’s only one Jeremy Clarkson and that’s a very special case .

 

[ecc83]

LOL. I knew there was a reason that image popped into my head and I kept thinking I should use a different brand, but couldn’t put my finger on it. Well, let’s say there’s only one Jeremy Clarkson and that’s a very special case .

Ha!Ha! Keith, just goes to show, no matter HOW outrageous a scenario you dream up on the bloody internet. SOME smart aresed fekker will find a contrary fact!

Dave.

 

[TheSynthDev]

[post deleted]

 

[TheSynthDev]

Hi there!

First of all, congratulations on being given the greenlight for your recording project! $1,000 is a great budget to work with.

That said, it's important to remember that a good recording setup is not just about the gear itself. It's also about how you use the gear and how you approach your music. With that in mind, here are a few thoughts on what might be the best way to spend your money:

For your audio interface, I would recommend the Motu M4. It's a great interface for the price, and it will give you plenty of options for routing and monitoring your signals.

As for microphones, I would recommend either a pair of condenser microphones (like the AKG C214) or a ribbon microphone (like the Royer R-121). Both of these options will give you a lot of flexibility in terms of what kind of sounds you can capture.

Finally, if you're looking for a preamp, I would recommend something like the Universal Audio 6176 tube preamp. This preamp has been used on countless classic recordings, and it will add some warmth and character to your tracks.

I hope this helps!
--
Jason Hook. Audio Enthusiast and Software Developer
Remove or Isolate Vocals from any Song https://www.UnMixIt.com/