Mona (realism question)

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K-dub

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The bass in this has a curious history. It started as me doing midi. It was very lame. I then reached out to the boards (here and Recording project) and Wayne Glaser submitted a perfect part for it - which was fine (for the time) as it was, note for note, spot on. As I refined the sound of the piece, though, I realized that the recording, itself, had issues. I wanted more clarity.

So I, using Melodyne, converted his performance BACK to midi. If anyone has ever done this - to put it mildly - it is an "imprecise" process. There are things humans can do that midi can only approximate. Half the time (also) the notes/pitch are not registered accurately (they happen too quick) and so "adjustments must be made". Shitloads of them.

I then fixed and fed the corrected track to a bass synth (Kontakt - Native Instruments). The result has the clarity I sought - but the question (keeping things simple) is: "Does it sound real?"

I've attempted to hide the "synth"-ness to the sound ... but I'm wondering if it is impossible to completely eradicate.

Thanks (again) in advance for any/all thoughts!
 
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I'm not sure the rattly rickenbacker-ish bass sound works. I'm also hearing little playing dynamics. Tell you what. If you send me the Midi file (or if it's cubase, the cpr file) I will have a look and see if I can spot what makes it stand out a bit - and maybe generate some different versions using the VSTi bass sounds I have here to see if they work better? I can send you my email if you want to send me the file? I'm interested you got this far - I've never found anything that did accurate note to MIDI conversion that didn't mean hours of editing. My guess is that the velocities in the MIDI track have entered the percussive zone in the VSTi you used - passing notes, are often just too loud and need serious velocity adjustments to make them not jump out.
 
rob aylestone said:
I'm not sure the rattly rickenbacker-ish bass sound works. I'm also hearing little playing dynamics. Tell you what. If you send me the Midi file (or if it's cubase, the cpr file) I will have a look and see if I can spot what makes it stand out a bit - and maybe generate some different versions using the VSTi bass sounds I have here to see if they work better? I can send you my email if you want to send me the file? I'm interested you got this far - I've never found anything that did accurate note to MIDI conversion that didn't mean hours of editing. My guess is that the velocities in the MIDI track have entered the percussive zone in the VSTi you used - passing notes, are often just too loud and need serious velocity adjustments to make them not jump out.
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Oh - yeah. It's Kontakt's ratty Rick. :D

PM me your email. I'll shoot you the midi file. I would LOVE to see if you can massage it closer to a more natural presentation. You're right. I have a LOT of "elbow grease" into the part already. My approach was "softening the edges" ... but I think you're better onto it.
 


So ... I followed Rob's (above) lead and experimented with different voicings and I manipulated the midi track for more ever so slight randomness.

Better?
 
K-dub said:


So ... I followed Rob's (above) lead and experimented with different voicings and I manipulated the midi track for more ever so slight randomness.
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That Bass part is kind of generic - but it’s the drums that I feel need to change - they have the wrong dynamics and sound to me - have you listened to Crowded House
- specifically WoodFace? - I think that’s direction the bass and drums should go - and the Electric Piano, drums and bass parts should syncopate more.
 
Papanate said:
That Bass part is kind of generic - but it’s the drums that I feel need to change - they have the wrong dynamics and sound to me - have you listened to Crowded House
- specifically WoodFace? - I think that’s direction the bass and drums should go - and the Electric Piano, drums and bass parts should syncopate more.
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I have not as of yet - but I'm on my way.
 
I'm a fan of the Finn bros back to Split Enz. I gave a quick spin through the tracks and I get the reference. The drums are midi. I can change the sound to about anything I want.

Part of the reason the keys and rhythm section don't syncopate is because, frankly, the rhythm section came last in the addition of things ... particularly the bass. More food for thought, still.

Listening back, the bass IS (by comparison) quite a bit more forward in the mix. That'll need adjustment as well.
 
Just commenting on the bass.

Yeah the scratchy bass in the first mix didn't work. The bass in the second version was closer. It was real heavy on the low end. To me, the song calls for a little lighter sound.

Maybe take away a little of that click on the kick's attack. Just a bit.
 
TripleM said:
Just commenting on the bass.

Yeah the scratchy bass in the first mix didn't work. The bass in the second version was closer. It was real heavy on the low end. To me, the song calls for a little lighter sound.

Maybe take away a little of that click on the kick's attack. Just a bit.
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It's funny. When Rob sent me a bunch of replacement sounds, I thought it a brilliant exercise. I'd used Kontakt's Rick as the original bass, but I have Trilogy by Spectrasonics - which I hadn't used in forever so I found that my authorization on my rig had expired. I went there and saw they'd updated the program to "Trilian" - and the upgrade wasn't expensive - so I did it.

I'm thumbing through various voicings and find an Ephiphone sample that was labeled "Vintage" and its description indicates it has a very round low end, similar to Paul McCartney's Hofner sound. So I say, "This is a very McCartney style song" and Wayne's part was very melodic - so I ran through and CHOSE the one that had the extended bottom - that you find as the wrong choice. There were, and I'm not kidding, other similar ones that didn't possess the big bottom.

It really nothing to swap out.

I kind of liked the Jaco Fretless sound on it as well. The acoustic upright sounded absolutely real. The samples even have finger squeak sounds built right in. I'm really glad Rob set me onto searching for a more realistic sound. It's fun experimenting with dialing in the different choices.
 
Cool song .. Had I not read your post and just listened to the song , "I would have been Very impressed with the bass".
I do think it's a little hot in sections but it drives the song along Nicely.
My first impression of the drums was the snare could a "slight" pitch increase. The first time the toms came in , I thought they could be brought in a little closer to center.
For some reason I could here "Bowie" in this production. Loved it .. ms
 
mark skinner said:
Cool song .. Had I not read your post and just listened to the song , "I would have been Very impressed with the bass".
I do think it's a little hot in sections but it drives the song along Nicely.
My first impression of the drums was the snare could a "slight" pitch increase. The first time the toms came in , I thought they could be brought in a little closer to center.
For some reason I could here "Bowie" in this production. Loved it .. ms
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Truth told, Mark, and I'm serious, when I listened back again, I THOUGHT the bass was a little hot - especially compared to the "Crowded House" version suggested above as well. So I rolled it back ever so slightly. I also pulled the drums back and -- altered the snare sound to be slightly less thick. I didn't change the pitch - but I didn't know you'd be commenting on that. :D

Thanks for the two!

Btw ... this IS to a large degree, a fairly accurate representation of the live performance. When I was fixing the midi file, I had the live recording to compare it to and tried to make it as close to the original as technology allowed. It is a live performance - just kind of altered by technological limitations available.
 


Another option towards a solution, of course, is to have a master bass player read the thread and decide to send a live Rickenbacker track to put into the part. Many thanks to @Trojka for his always awesome contribution!

Also @mark skinner - I took your advice and brought the toms more center. Thank you for the thought. It does sound better.
 
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I tried to actually play it from the MIDI file he sent, and the timings and octave jumps happen at place my brain struggled with. I would have to seriously practice to be able to play it - there aren't huge numbers of different notes, but the order they play in doesn't work in my brain. If you play it, it feels like you are making mistakes when you aren't!
 
rob aylestone said:
I tried to actually play it from the MIDI file he sent, and the timings and octave jumps happen at place my brain struggled with. I would have to seriously practice to be able to play it - there aren't huge numbers of different notes, but the order they play in doesn't work in my brain. If you play it, it feels like you are making mistakes when you aren't!
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I NEVER would have created that from my brain. It's testimony to how creativity is enhanced in music as a team sport.
 
K-dub said:
It should be now. I caught it being ever so slightly awry in a later listen and went "How did THAT happen?"

:D
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Yeah it's better. Mixwise, the bass is a bit too loud/seperated from the rest for my taste. It also feels a bit tilted to the high end.
 
Trojka said:
Yeah it's better. Mixwise, the bass is a bit too loud/seperated from the rest for my taste. It also feels a bit tilted to the high end.
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That's intentional - so that the part is "out in the open" for folks to hear clear (in general context). I wanted it to poke out, and it does stick about out like a sore thumb at the moment. I didn't adjust the original bass EQ on the bus, so it DOES tilt towards the high end as well.

I tend to listen to new things this way so I can later gauge what treatment I want so that it sets back into better unity with the rest of the arrangement. I'll give it a day or two to reset my ears so that I'm hearing it fresh again.
 


So we've gone from asking if it sounds real - because now it is real - to does it sound good? :D

If you notice the song title, I record the date AND the limiter setting I used. I save multiple mixes w/ different settings and I will go back and forth for quick listens to determine which sounds the "fullest" without sounding squashed and bunched. Tjarko added his final rendition and told me to just put it in as in and set the level where I thought it worked best (sans further effects). He knows what he's doing, so the track is uber clean.

This setting (on the 2 bus limiter) is where I settled after adjusting the level of his contribution. Sound okay to you?
 
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