Question about proximity to microphone when singing live.

G

gene12586

Member
When I'm practicing singing in my apartment (not for recording, just for practicing) I've realized that my mouth is always very close to the microphone - like basically as close as my mouth can be to the microphone without touching it (so close that my facial hair will sometimes touch the microphone). I never actually bothered to read about how far one should be from the mic... and so now I'm reading online and some sites seem to be saying that a general rule of thumb is 6-12 inches from the mic... but I've gotten so used to singing so closely that 6-12 inches seems too far back for me... I read online that if one gets too close to the mic then too much bass and/or distortion can be added... Though I find that when I move further back from where I usually am that I seem to lose too much crispness and clarity. Though I've also read several articles saying that 'eating the mic' is fine. So I'm wondering if one should just follow a rule of going with whatever sounds best or if I really should be moving 6-12 inches back and learning to sing that way... Is it possible that me singing so closely to the mic has just not allowed me to develop as good a voice as would be needed to sing further back? I should note that I typically use a Shure Beta57A mic (though occasionally I use an SM58).
Any responses are appreciated.
Thanks.
 
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Like many things, it depends. In this case, it depends on the mic, the singer, the room, etc...

Usually, a dynamic mic is used live. Something like an SM58 (or 57)....When I sing live, my lips are literally touching the mic pretty much all the time.

In the studio, you might want to back up a bit, but since you're using a dynamic mic to record (which is fine), you probably don't need to go that far back. Depending on your voice, you might not want to change anything you're doing. Experiment and see.

But, to answer your other question, I don't think it's affecting how good a voice you've developed.
 
Completely agree with that.
Your 6-12" is probably a good rule of thumb for someone starting out, and probably more useful advice when using capacitor/condenser microphones.
Also worth noting that it's probably decent advice in a decent room.
In the average home recordist hobbyists room closer is pretty much always better because, unfortunately, quite often the rooms don't sound good.

As long as nothing's clipping and everything sounds good, I see no issue with being more or less on top of the mic when recording.

You're right in that the recording will get bass heavier the closer you are but worst case scenario you roll off the lows a bit with an eq.
 
Random dude said:
Like many things, it depends. In this case, it depends on the mic, the singer, the room, etc...

Usually, a dynamic mic is used live. Something like an SM58 (or 57)....When I sing live, my lips are literally touching the mic pretty much all the time.

In the studio, you might want to back up a bit, but since you're using a dynamic mic to record (which is fine), you probably don't need to go that far back. Depending on your voice, you might not want to change anything you're doing. Experiment and see.

But, to answer your other question, I don't think it's affecting how good a voice you've developed.
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Thanks! Good to hear. Will do.
 
The thing to remember is that your voice at 12" and 6" and touching the grill are all different sounds - often radically so! I think it was Bing Crosby who discovered what a cardioid in close did to his voice - it made it really nice. At a distance (apparently) his voice was much thinner and harder - he started the 'crooner' trend we still have today. There is a guy on youtube from one of the London colleges and he's a singer with a very low voice, and he loves comparing mics close in. He's eccentric and wears a monacle, but a really knowledgeable guy https://www.youtube.com/@AntonBrowne. Have a look at his videos. It also works in reverse. Nobody used an omni mic live, because they feed back easily and don;t have the proximity effect - APART from Karen Carpenter. I heard her brother explain this years back in a magazine - for her, she wanted the same tone if she was close or more distant - which omnis do, so the poor sound man had his work cut out - but an omni, with her reverb and her reverb made her sound like the records.
 
Steenamaroo said:
Completely agree with that.
Your 6-12" is probably a good rule of thumb for someone starting out, and probably more useful advice when using capacitor/condenser microphones.
Also worth noting that it's probably decent advice in a decent room.
In the average home recordist hobbyists room closer is pretty much always better because, unfortunately, quite often the rooms don't sound good.

As long as nothing's clipping and everything sounds good, I see no issue with being more or less on top of the mic when recording.

You're right in that the recording will get bass heavier the closer you are but worst case scenario you roll off the lows a bit with an eq.
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Thanks!
That makes sense. I'm singing in a totally untreated room.
I should note that my question was specifically about just practicing singing in my apartment when not recording (I edited the question to make that more clear).
 
rob aylestone said:
The thing to remember is that your voice at 12" and 6" and touching the grill are all different sounds - often radically so! I think it was Bing Crosby who discovered what a cardioid in close did to his voice - it made it really nice. At a distance (apparently) his voice was much thinner and harder - he started the 'crooner' trend we still have today. There is a guy on youtube from one of the London colleges and he's a singer with a very low voice, and he loves comparing mics close in. He's eccentric and wears a monacle, but a really knowledgeable guy https://www.youtube.com/@AntonBrowne. Have a look at his videos. It also works in reverse. Nobody used an omni mic live, because they feed back easily and don;t have the proximity effect - APART from Karen Carpenter. I heard her brother explain this years back in a magazine - for her, she wanted the same tone if she was close or more distant - which omnis do, so the poor sound man had his work cut out - but an omni, with her reverb and her reverb made her sound like the records.
Click to expand...
Thanks!
 
Mic technique I believe is learned but I would also say it depends on the mic, what you're running it through, how much gain you're pushing, how strong your voice is, and what you're singing. If you're singing metal or heavy stuff you'd back off as far as needed without losing any volume or fullness. Singing softer stuff would put you closer to the mic but back off when hitting notes that require you to push more.

I do solo acoustic live with a 58 and I'm right on the mic 90% of the time with lips on it and maybe an inch or two away. I feel it gives me more control, and back off maybe 6-12 inches or more when having to belt out notes to keep the vocal even without being overbearing. A song like, Oh Darling for example. But that distance depends on what I'm hearing. I've been singing in mics for close to 50 years and I don't even think about it anymore as I rely on my ears to determine the distance off the mic.

I have used condenser mics live and because they have a better response I had no need to get right up on it singing normally, and still needing to back off when belting it out. There's been times using condensers recording where I'm about 2 feet off the mic belting out a high vocal in full voice. But singing in my head voice I'm much closer, the distance depending on fullness and where the meter is peaking.

You say you can hear the differences trying in different positions, so it's just a matter of you finding that sweet spot that works for your voice and what you're singing. Basically you want to keep the vocal even whether singing softly or loudly. You'll figure it out.
 
pj11 said:
Mic technique I believe is learned but I would also say it depends on the mic, what you're running it through, how much gain you're pushing, how strong your voice is, and what you're singing. If you're singing metal or heavy stuff you'd back off as far as needed without losing any volume or fullness. Singing softer stuff would put you closer to the mic but back off when hitting notes that require you to push more.

I do solo acoustic live with a 58 and I'm right on the mic 90% of the time with lips on it and maybe an inch or two away. I feel it gives me more control, and back off maybe 6-12 inches or more when having to belt out notes to keep the vocal even without being overbearing. A song like, Oh Darling for example. But that distance depends on what I'm hearing. I've been singing in mics for close to 50 years and I don't even think about it anymore as I rely on my ears to determine the distance off the mic.

I have used condenser mics live and because they have a better response I had no need to get right up on it singing normally, and still needing to back off when belting it out. There's been times using condensers recording where I'm about 2 feet off the mic belting out a high vocal in full voice. But singing in my head voice I'm much closer, the distance depending on fullness and where the meter is peaking.

You say you can hear the differences trying in different positions, so it's just a matter of you finding that sweet spot that works for your voice and what you're singing. Basically you want to keep the vocal even whether singing softly or loudly. You'll figure it out.
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Thanks. Makes perfect sense.
I didn't mean to say I'm eating the mic 100% of the time; just the vast majority of the time. I naturally back off a little for the 2% of a song that has to be belted (I'm not doing any metal, but I do a fair amount of rock and also Thom Yorke-esque songs that have parts with the powerful operatic sustained notes, and so I naturally back off for the belting and powerful stuff).
 
Yep, depends on the situation and the goal.

For live performance with a rock band, lips on grill is the norm. It allows a lower gain setting which reduces bleed from drums, amps and stage monitors. Proximity effect is countered with eq, which also mitigates plosives. If you're practicing for that situation, practice how you will actually perform.

Note that the closer your normal distance is, the more sensitive the mic will be to small changes in distance. With lips on grill, working the mic could mean moving back three inches. If you start six inches off the grill, you'll have to move a lot more to get a similar effect.
 
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I watched a youtube vid on how to get the best out of a NT1A.
You can get an intimate sound close up.
You get a more spaced sound from several feet away.
There is no right and wrong, just depends on the result you're after.
 
I remember the 90s, when the famous singers started exaggerating 'working the mic' - the Mariah Careys, Celine Dions, the Whitney Houstons - they didn't need the sound op to do fast and furious fader moves - they did it, with the tonal changes, themselves. The wannabes singing their songs didn't realise what they were doing and just copied the hand movements as a sort of arty hand wave, and of course got it totally wrong and made the sound ops life really difficult - they pulled away too far and the mic would be on the edge of feedback, then they'd suddenly go in very close and belt - you had to run compressors to make it livable, at high compression settings and it made it very muddy and horrible. People then looked at the people who did it really well and sounded great and couldn't work out why they sounded awful? Whitney uses an X, I want one! It wasn't the mic, it was Whitney.
 
Oh, I get it now. I was slow. You mean people wanted whatever she was using, thinking that was why she sounded so good.

I thought an "X" was a specific piece of equipment or something. :eek: :D
 
I have a condenser mic that has cardioid pattern as one option via a switch. Does that mean I will experience the proximity effect in that situation? Seems to me the answer is yes.
 
Almost all mics with a cardioid pattern have proximity effect. The Electro-Voice RE20 and their other "Variable D" models minimize it.
 
I’ve got some Line 6 radio mics. They use their guitar technology to recreate the sound of 6 different mics and the recreation in tone is really good. However, they can’t recreate the physical changes in how proximity effect is different in these mics, or how the cardioid or hyper patterns really work. As a result, mine are set to SM58, and there’s little point using the mic’s cleverness.
 
One consequence of going in close is "popping" the explosive noises caused by your actual exhaled air. The SM58 is designed for close vocal work and it therefore somewhat 'pop protected'. The Beta 57 in more an 'instrument ' mic and might therefore pop rather badly. Investing in a decent foam 'gag' can help a lot and has two other advantages. You can use the foam as a distance measure, so long as your lips are just brushing it you will be 6-10mm off the actual capsule but even better, you will keep a consistent distance song to song. Last but maybe not least! The gag will capture spit and can be washed periodically.

Backing off 6 and certainly 12 inches from a dynamic means a pretty weak signal needing a lot of gain from a really low noise pre amp. May we know what you use? Then again, maybe you are very loud!

Re Karen Carpenter Rob. I never heard her live but I would say she was one of those very rare singers who had a very beautiful voice but with what seemed to me effortless but great power. So sad, I doubt we shall hear her like again.

Dave.
 
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