Anyone understand VSTs like Alchemy - general question about them all (and memory!)

[Chrisulrich]

Dear Anyone.

I'm working in 32-bit because I've got disability software that never got updated so I have to watch out for memory usage, or the whole thing just crashes and burns and takes your work with it!

Most modern VSTs seem to be monotimbral, dunno WHY, but that seems to be the case. I've got Alchemy 32-bit which comes with a ton of presets which must be taking up loads of RAM. (I'm assuming that, I'm not good enough to know for certain!) If I have 2 instance loaded for 2 sounds, does each instance load up the entire set of presets so I've got everything filling up RAM TWICE, or do they share the same library? Second, associated question....

I've got something called Chainer, which lets you load VSTs into it but only counts as one VST itself. I got it thinking if I wanted several instances of - just for example - Alchemy, I could load them into that then have one MIDI channel playing the lot, so I could blend the sounds together in Chainer and have the unified sound being played by one midi note (or several if I wanted a chord, sorta thing!) Or have them as separate tracks in one VST like it's multitimbral. On my odd DAW, you only get 8 top slots. Each slot has 15 sub-slots. So you only get 8 instruments if they're monotimbral, but 126, of course, if they're multitimbral. (Or any combination in between!) I was hoping Chainer would help me escape that limitation. Thing IS - I'm getting odd crashes using Chainer and I'm wondering if when you load a VST you load all its patches at once WITH it, so all the patches I'm not using are there in memory clogging the system up. Anybody know if that would be the case? Trying to work out what's causing the crashing.

Sorry for 2 questions, I'll split this into 2 posts if a mod. tells me to!

Yours with thanks

Chris.

 

[Papanate]

I'm working in 32-bit because I've got disability software that never got updated so I have to watch out for memory usage, or the whole thing just crashes and burns and takes your work with it!

What is Disability software?

Most modern VSTs seem to be monotimbral, dunno WHY, but that seems to be the case. I've got Alchemy 32-bit which comes with a ton of presets which must be taking up loads of RAM. (I'm assuming that, I'm not good enough to know for certain!) If I have 2 instance loaded for 2 sounds, does each instance load up the entire set of presets so I've got everything filling up RAM TWICE, or do they share the same library?

No they don't load up the entire library - but each instance of Alchemy is further tax on your system.

I've got something called Chainer, which lets you load VSTs into it but only counts as one VST itself. I got it thinking if I wanted several instances of - just for example - Alchemy, I could load them into that then have one MIDI channel playing the lot, so I could blend the sounds together in Chainer and have the unified sound being played by one midi note (or several if I wanted a chord, sorta thing!) Or have them as separate tracks in one VST like it's multitimbral. On my odd DAW, you only get 8 top slots. Each slot has 15 sub-slots. So you only get 8 instruments if they're monotimbral, but 126, of course, if they're multitimbral. (Or any combination in between!) I was hoping Chainer would help me escape that limitation. Thing IS - I'm getting odd crashes using Chainer and I'm wondering if when you load a VST you load all its patches at once WITH it, so all the patches I'm not using are there in memory clogging the system up. Anybody know if that would be the case? Trying to work out what's causing the crashing.

It's crashing because Alchemy uses up a bunch of Ram. And at 32 bit - it taxes the system regardless if you are using one Midi note to play two isntances.

 

[Chrisulrich]

Thanks - thought it was something like that. GAAH!! Hate 64-bit nightmare VSTs - never gotten on with any of them, love my 32-bit one because it's pure notation, you can just sit there and happily write music with it rather than wondering where to FIND anything! All these modern 64-bit jobs seem to be for loops'n'samples users, not for people who want to actually WRITE a piece using notes!

End of rant - for now!!

Yours respectfully

Chris.

 

[Paj]

Are you using a 32-bit OS or do you just prefer to use your 32-bit versions on your 64-bit OS?

Paj
8^)

 

[Chrisulrich]

Dear All.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough - no sarcasm intended there, my bad!

I can't play anything because of co-ordination problems so I use a lovely notation package called Quick Score Elite Level 2. Which is 32-bit and REALLY designed for Windows XP, though it runs in Windows 10 under protest. That's what I meant by 'disability software' (sorry!) You can do everything with one hand and a mouse, which suits me fine as my left hand WORKS, but not good enough to play anything with.

It's got 8 top slots. Each slot has up to 15 sub-slots. So if you've got 8 multitimbral VSTs loaded, each with the capability of holding 16 sounds at once, you get 128 sounds. If they're all monotimbral, you get 8 sounds. Believe you me I've tried to learn things like Reaper - you can't WRITE music in these things, you're just dropping bought loops into them - nah. That's not me. I like WRITING stuff using notation which is what QSE is brilliant at (it's better than Sibelius, trust me!)

Thing IS - if I use several instances of - say - Absynth or similar, it uses up all the memory 32-bits can access pretty quickly. More quickly than the actual size of the Absynth .DLL seems to be. So I was wondering if Absynth loads all its sounds with each instance or all the instances were working from a central pool of sounds.

The reason, Paj, I use 32-bit QSE is I've fought Studio One, Reaper and Cubase, I've done online courses in the things and I flat can't make them work for me. All the courses show you how to buy loops and drop them in and then use MIDI automation to control them (and EQ and everything of course) none of the courses show you how to WRITE music, note-by-note, using notation not piano roll (SURELY they've all got notation SOMEWHERE!?!) I know Cubase has notation but its notation sucks. And I'm using the same effects plugins in Quick Score Elite as in Cubase, can only use MIDI anyway so why not stick with software that actually makes sense! (Studio One's a BIT Quick Score-like but it's SOO unnecessarily complicated it's untrue. They need to simplify that thing right down, then they'd have a good product.)

Just don't understand why they make a VST with a ton of gorgeous sounds, monotimbral so you can't use more than one of the sounds at once. Especially these Maizeplayer ones which come up SAYING they've got 16 strips but STILL only let you use one sound at once!! And why make learning to read music pointless by not putting decent notation in the DAWs? Not that I'm at his standard - yet! - but can you imagine Mozart writing something using piano roll? (Reading music's far easier than they make it look, trust me, anyone can learn how to do it inside 15 minutes. I could teach anyone to do it in 1 post.)

In Windows XP I used to Rewire QSE to Cubase and use Cubase to do the mixing and QSE as the 'front end' to actually write the music in, so I got the best of both worlds. But Rewire don't work in Windows 10, do it! So if any of you 64-bit guys wanted to use lots of sounds from the same monotimbral VST, how would you do it? Have a TON of memory, load up loads of instances and have to put each separate note of a chord on a separate instance? So if you were doing a 3 note chord on 3 sounds from - say - Absynth you'd have to have 3 instances of Absynth loaded? Is that why some of these projects have so many tracks? If yes, why don't they make all the VSTs polytimbral like Sampletank or similar! Don't get it, seems very lazy programming.

Anyway, thanks for all your help thus far, all of you. Sorry for the frustrated rantyness.

Yours with respect

Chris.

 

[rob aylestone]

I'm a bit confused. Cubase will not allow any 32 bit plugins - and hasn't for years now. However I'm running a bit of software that wraps the 32 bit VSTi's into 64 bit versions and it works seamlessly. I'm not home for a week or so, but I'll double check what it is called.

I'm a user of Spitfire Audio's sample libraries - and some are huge. If I run 3 instances of the same one it doesn't use any extra memory worth speaking about over running 3 from within 1 instance. They used to, but now people often create entire templates with hundreds of tracks and memory usage isn't a major headache.

If you're doing classical style music, I wouldn't want multitimbrality anyway, because the patches often nowadays are essentially monophonic on the legato settings so you can't play chords on those ones, while you can on ensemble patches. If you haven't already got it - they will give you a free copy of BBC Symphony Orchestra Discovery - which is really excellent - it's around 50 quid, but free if you can't afford it.

With score writing as a means to produce music, I agree with your Sibelius comments - it's a horrible product, always has been and I've recently switched to Steinberg Dorico.

It has to be said that playing music in is still the quickest method of writing music. Sadly, reading music is not common, and it is NOT the best way for people who noodle on a keyboard. It's too restrictive. I can read and write music, but my scores are printed for other people - I have paid for Sibelius for years but I never use it to produce music. The trouble with writing dots is that it's rigid and phrasing from your head to page is rarely exactly what you want - especially when a stranger plays it.

If you want to see how it's done - I recommend you search on YouTube for guy michelmore spitfire audio or his name with bbc symphony orchestra. He is a proper composer for TV and movies and lots of his work ends up being played, so scores are important - but see how quick he writes stuff and how he uses multiple different software. He is also totally British and eccentric - but he just knows the software. If one hand is fine - you probably could really benefit from a good DAW in every way. I never do loops or patterns - ever!

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

I can't play anything because of co-ordination problems so

Why? Disabled? Learn to play..It is worth it.

I've fought Studio One, Reaper and Cubase, I've done online courses in the things and I flat can't make them work for me. All the courses show you how to buy loops and drop them in and then use MIDI automation to control them

Sound is waves. Don't let the dots and staff lines get in the way.

Just don't understand why they make a VST with a ton of gorgeous sounds, monotimbral so you can't use more than one of the sounds at once. Especially these Maizeplayer ones which come up SAYING they've got 16 strips but STILL only let you use one sound at once!! A

They cannot split the deck/s ?

In 1988 I had an Apple IIGS. There was a program called Music STudio Gold 2.0. It would be perfect for this.

DAW

 

[rob aylestone]

The trouble with courses is that they teach what the teacher does. If they are into EDM, then that music IS all about loops and copy and paste. If you do rock and roll your needs are different BUT copy and paste is still important. Some people enter music in step time like we used to do in the 90s - so you select a note length and then type in ab b c d c g or whatever and notes appear. Cubase scoring was weird (still is, but only on the expensive full versions) and you can enter in step time, with a mouse, or play in. The screen display is better but still easy to wreck. If you want print quality scores it's not worth the time it takes to make a score look good, as opposed to sound good.

That said, I'd not change from Cubase now because I'm quick, efficient and pretty accurate with it. If I need the dots, I can either put up with Cubase's iffy scoring, or bring it into a score program, that looks nicer. If one hand is good - can you play with that? It would be so much more creative and quicker. Composing by writing down notes or typing them in is very old fashioned. My colleague has all sorts of software, including for a pad where he can draw the notes like he would on paper, and then he can edit that in Cubase to put right the mistakes.